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Comment by refenestrator | Hacker News Reader

Remember that nobody was threatened or, as a result, morally offended by China until the last few years when we figured out we couldn't keep them at the bottom of the value chain forever.

How do we live in a society where we can just be aimed at a new foreign enemy and all of our free, enlightened citizens go along every time? Russia (support afghanistan), Iran (support Iraq), Iraq (support gulf emirates), Al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Iraq again, now China! It seems so normal to us, because that's all we know.

They're not perfect, we're not perfect, and both states are feeding off of national rivalry to legitimize themselves because that's what states do.

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Disagree. Not only have Americans pointed out their disagreement with Chinese government for as long as I’m aware, one of our core foreign policy concepts was that doing commerce with China would push them to liberalize and adopt more Western values in their government.

As another commenter noted, what’s happened so far is that the quality of life has improved for so many Chinese that they seem willing to accept this system despite its problems. This may indicate American foreign policy was wrong-headed, but it’s still too early to tell. A middle class represents a large power base, and especially as second generation middle class Chinese come to adulthood, they may no longer see this model of government as acceptable. But: who knows? Nobody has a crystal ball.

American foreign policy was wrong-headed because it envisioned China happily assimilating into a world order which recognized US as rightful hegemon of all oceans and most land. This was more of an unspoken assumption, the spoken version had all the stuff you said.

Why would they accept that? There's a billion and a half of them and they work harder. They're going to have regional hegemony over their area as a matter of arithmetic.

It was wrong headed because it gave a lifeline to an immoral authoritarian government. Without being allowed to participate in the WTO and the west's world order CCP would have collapsed by the end of the 90s. Once a democratic rule of law government took over then they could have become just as prosperous but without the evil power structure that keeps is here to stay. It would be more like Taiwan or South Korea or Hong Kong pre-National Security Law, prosperous and free.

Their way is _working_. No, Taiwan and South Korea and Hong Kong are not proof that democratic methods work. Calling Hong Kong under Britain democratic is wildly disingenuous. Taiwan and South Korea are only _very_ recently democratic. Arguably the bulk of their ascendance occurred under authoritarian rule.

You also don't get to point only at successes. They looked at Singapore and sought to emulate that model, who are you to dictate that this is not acceptable? They looked at India and saw failure, what's your rebuttal?

Their way isnt their way through. They just regiment society and produce technology and goods designed elsewhere. Without technology transfers 'their way' would be living in poverty pretending everything was fine because their society is so terrified of criticism..

Honesltly, more developed nations paid for cheap labour in China and hoped they would adopt more libertarian views (as the technology which pulled them out of poverty was created in freer nations), instead they are amassing power and think they can suddenly supercede the current world order. They are so xenophobic that it will never happen, not until their values change and they accept foreigners like the US, at which point there is little difference anyway

> Remember that nobody was threatened or, as a result, morally offended by China until the last few years when we figured out we couldn't keep them at the bottom of the value chain forever.

I was helping companies figure out how to isolate IP from their Chinese branches 10+ years ago. This is not new, and definitely not “the last few years”.

Maybe I'm biased somewhat as Australia has a history of being threatened by an aggressor taking over the Pacific in the past, but I don't think the situation with Xi Jinping is as simple as "national rivalry" or "a new foreign enemy".

Xi is reinstating policies that have not existed in China since the days of Mao: lifelong leadership terms, extreme cults of personality, a fostered sense of nationalistic violence, the beginnings of territorial expansion and mass incarceration and repression of an entire ethnic group.

There are very real fears that he could become the next Hitler and violently subjugate the entire Asia-Pacific region to his rule.

That is not true. There have been many reports concerned with China's aggressive efforts at stealing IP for at least 10 years that I'm aware of, probably more like 20.

> There have been many reports concerned with China's aggressive efforts at stealing IP for at least 10 years that I'm aware of, probably more like 20.

Over 20 sounds about right. Definitely since Clinton was in office. The number of times that satellite designs were ripped off was memorable.

There's still various articles that haven't been lost to bitrot.

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-485.html

This was hilarious because Congress was asking if the US military was straight up sharing. The reported US designs ending up in Chinese hands was of notable concern to draw a few inquiries.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missi... et al

If you want to know what caused the entire western media to change their tune and become anti-China. This here is what triggered it:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/george-soros-davos-2019-c...

> Remember that nobody was threatened or, as a result, morally offended by China until the last few years when we figured out we couldn't keep them at the bottom of the value chain forever.

No. Not really. Just stating things doesn't make them true.

You should ask China's neighbors (esp. India) whether they felt threatened before.