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Comment by brtkdotse | Hacker News Reader

> Christina Cage, a 38-year-old chartered accountant in Edinburgh, did not appreciate how important her commute was until she stopped doing it. “I came to realise that my commute was a time where I could transition from being a mum to becoming a colleague with a bit of space in between to myself,” says Cage, who has two young children. “Overnight it became a threshold of a door that didn’t close.”

While I can’t say I’d like to pay the price of 2x50 minutes each day, I too miss that piece of time that was truly mine and mine alone. I used it to read, do a mediation or just space out and let my mind wander.

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I'm completely different, I despise my commute because it's time that doesn't truly belong to me and I'm not being paid for. It's getting up earlier and arriving home later for the exclusive purpose of mindless presenteeism, time that belongs to my boss rather than to me because I certainly wouldn't be doing it out of choice. I also have to cycle through often horrible weather around drivers who I can only presume have WW2 fighter style marks for how may cyclists they've managed to run off the road.

My next job will be exclusively remote, and I'll be much better off for it. I don't mind what other people choose to do, as long as I'm not forced to participate in the return to the office.

Oh, I have no doubt there are commutes that are horrible. The part that I miss from mine is a 26 minute train ride on a train that was always punctual and never more than 50% full.

In a past life I used to commute to a small scenic village out of a city. It was exactly as you describe: scenic and relaxing 25 minute train ride with not another soul on the train and it was always on time.

Now I fly around a lot and it feels like half my life is draining away "waiting to get somewhere".

> 26 minute train ride on a train that was always punctual and never more than 50% full.

I'm happy for you but it doesn't seem like a typical commute though.

Typical for whom exactly? Mine is the same, just 15 minute total. What's "typical" for you?

An internal London-to-London commute could well be like that. My Kennington to Goodge Street commute started with an empty train, while if you can flex your starting time to 10am you're going to have a pretty empty Tube on much of the network.

> I also *have* to cycle through often horrible weather(...)

Except you do not, do you? If the weather is horrible more often than not and you still choose to bicycle then that is on you. Same goes for people who complain that their commute takes upto 2 hours. That is/was a choice you made when you chose your living arrangement and employer.

I know I get downvoted for this opinion since it goes against majority of HN, but commute and office work are both really nice and I miss them. I hope come next month our office opens up and I can start going to work again. But my situation is way different. I've purposely chosen both my employer and my living situation to suite me. I have 15-25 minute drive to office. My gym is on the way and there is several choices of grocery stores, so I can get additional benefit for my commute. On top of that the 20 minutes of driving back home is very nice book end to day of working and I can leave the office completely behind me and just have a nice drive and listen some music. In same toon in the morning I can hit the gym and then have a nice drive to office and start focusing on the work immediately.

It is fine if you don't like your commute or your office, but don't take it personally when someone says that they like it.

You cut the sentence just before it turned out it is primarily complaint about drivers:

> around drivers who I can only presume have WW2 fighter style marks for how may cyclists they've managed to run off the road

Aggressive or unsafe driving is bad even if the author has the option to use other transport. It is bad also because to prevent people from using bikes.

Yeah exactly, I know lots of people who think I'm mad for cycling through an urban environment and it's everything to do with dangerous drivers rather than the environment itself. The key I've found is to be assertive but not aggressive, cars will dangerously pull out in front of you or overtake in a dangerous manner if you show the slightest lack of confidence or hesitation. It's not an easy thing to do as any cyclist will be acutely aware that Newton's laws of motion are not on their side!

Having said that, I definitely think the pro-cyclist camp (which I do consider myself a part of) likes to ignore that there are a lot of utterly useless cyclists out there too. Riding on the pavement, jumping red lights, being obstructive in traffic just to prove a point for example. I wish all cyclists kept to the highway code religiously because the small minority of bad cyclists or overly militant evangelists seriously damage the reputation of all cyclists, most of whom are simply ordinary people who want to get around without the expense or ecological footprint of driving.

Cycling ought to simply be a means of getting around, as normal as walking or driving. I understand this is how it's seen in places like the Netherlands, which is a far better state of affairs than here where cyclists are basically seen as vegans on wheels with all the drama that entails. Cycling shouldn't be a political act; I don't want to tell anyone they can't use their car for example, I'm certainly not saying everyone has to take up cycling and replace every journey with it. I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do with their life choices, I just want to get to work without getting literally run off the road by a mental taxi driver or clipped by a pillock who thinks its important to save the 0.5 seconds it would have taken him to check his left mirror.

I cut the relevant part since rest is obvious hyperbole.

But since we are on the topic from my experience most of the crashes that involve bicyclists could have been easily prevented by the cyclist.

If you have multiple experiences of crashes with cyclists, the common variable is you. Most of us never crashed a car with cyclist.

I've never crashed my car. However I've seen multiple times footage of bicyclist crashing with cars from both cyclist's point of view and from dash cams and the times cyclist couldn't do anything to prevent the crash can be counted with fingers from one hand.

Cyclist couldn't do anything is not a standard. People go to jail for causing crashes other person could have prevented. Cars crash every and participats could have done something else, but that is not how these situations are evaluated.

The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving.

>The complaint was about aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving.

aggressive or unnecessary dangerous driving is done by both parties and seeing a cyclist dodge and weave around cars during rush hour doesn't really leave much to imagination why their insurance premiums are higher.

I didn't see them taking anything personally. Most people who are planning to go fully remote (or were already) have absolutely no issue with people who want to work in an office however many days a week. I know I don't.

However I think it's also true that at least some people who are anxious to get back to the office are visualizing a pre-pandemic office. And at many companies, it's going to be more along the lines of a fair number of people having gone full remote and others coming in 2 or 3 days a week.

I didn't mean that they took it personally. That wasn't my intention. However I've often just commented "I can't wait to get to office again" and received downvotes and hostile comments on HN.

I think for some people it's just their way of saying "not me."

And others probably read it as "I can't wait to get everyone I work with back in the office" whether intended in that spirit or not. I do think some will be disappointed by what "the office" looks and feels like at many places post-pandemic.

It is fine if you like your commute or your office, but don't take it personally when someone says that they don't like it.

I don't, but just look at the downvotes my comment receives without any counter arguments. Preferring office to remote work is literally wrong think on HN.

> I've purposely chosen both my employer and my living situation to suite me.

You're very fortunate to have had both the opportunity and ability to do this. Many people are not.

HN users with their top-of-market salaries and offices in downtown centers tend to forget this.

That's the thing. I do not have top of the market sallary and I do not live center of any city. If I was just after money then I would have to live with that choice and live in way more expensive city or commute for way longer time.

Okay. You know Svitavy?

I thought so, because it's a small city in the Czech republic. There are about 5 guys there which have bussineses in various sectors. They all know each other. If you screw up badly in one job, you are not gonna get hired anywere.

"But why won't you move to Prague?" you ask. Because in Svitavy you get about 13-15k CZK netto/month. Rent in Prague for a reasonable studio apartment is about 11-12k (for reference - 9k for rent + 2,5k for utilities - https://www.sreality.cz/detail/pronajem/byt/1+kk/praha-kobyl...). Realistically the apartment is gonna be higher than that, because there are already 50 people who are willing to pay more than the said 9k for the linked one. You need about 4k a month for food. 500 CZK for phone + internet if you are cheap etc.

So in my example scenario, let's say you are saving 1k while in Svitavy, which is about right. You can't just go to Prague for job interview during your day job at a sweat shop. After a year you are gonna have 3/4 of living costs in Prague. If you are anything else than a programmer or IT guy, you are not gonna find a job in 2-3 months, possibly 6.

So unless you inherit something or take a loan to risk it all, you are stuck in Svitavy. Have a bit more empathy, nextlevelpíčo.

I don't really have a choice, the public transport is disgracefully bad everywhere near my job (the bus is often 30-40 minutes late and comes every hour and a half, completely unacceptable for commuting on) and I currently don't have a driver's licence as a result of medical issues (that are now resolved but the backlog for tests is enormous after the pandemic).

Also (and this is a general accusation, not a personal one!) it's easy for people who are homeowners to lecture others about sensibly choosing where to live, but for those of us with little prospect of getting on the housing ladder near their pre-covid jobs this line of argument does tend to grate. Being at the mercy of often predatory landlords is never a good position to be in, so I do take it a little personally when people call out for an end to remote work being the norm and a return to the old way of things. For many, remote work has been an adjustment of power away from bosses and landlords and towards employees which is something I don't think should be thrown away cheaply.

For the record, I don't really choose to cycle. Public transport is absolutely dreadful in much of the UK outside of London (I'm not exaggerating when I say it's an hour and a half to go six miles on a bus that often is 30-40 minutes late or doesn't turn up at all) and I don't have a driver's licence for medical reasons. These medical issues are now controlled, but the post-lockdown backlog for driving tests is insane so that's not an immediate option for me. At any rate it's wrong from a disability rights point of view to assume that driving is an option for everyone.

As I said there are other choices than just mode of transport. You could move closer to your office or find fully remote work or employer that has office in another city where you can move closer to the office or that has better public transport.

Yes, and for me that choice is to move away from companies that insist on commuting in favour of companies that are less Luddite in their approach to remote work which is what I'm actively doing.

I have zero desire to live in a city and zero desire to ever set foot in an office again, and I know that many other people in our sector feel them same. Provided enough people stick to their guns on this, commuting and office work can be a genuine choice rather than something people are coerced into which I think will be a hugely positive thing for society. I suspect it'll benefit people who actually enjoy the rat race too, because the offices will be empty of people like me who'd rather work in their own space and instead be populated exclusively by people who actually want to be there. I'm not saying people like you shouldn't get to go to the office if you want to, but I am saying that people like me shouldn't be forced to for no reason other than seagull managers fearing their authority might be eroded by remote work.

I literally only live near an urban area because I had to pre-COVID as remote jobs were few and far between. I'd far, far rather be in a cottage in the Welsh mountains or on a sailing boat slowly working around Britain. Urban life in general is something about as appealing to me as a sudden brain haemorrhage, which I think is an aspect in the motivations of many pro-WFH people that a lot of anti-WFH people fail to grasp. Lots of people live in urban areas because they had to, not because they wanted to and WFH provides an excellent route to finally escape the modern "dark Satanic mills" for good.

>pro-WFH

>anti-WFH

Many people who like to go to office (including myself) are not "anti-WFH". I don't get where this mind set is coming from. Just because someone likes something you don't does not mean they want you to do it as well.

There is nothing about your position I "fail to grasp". I weight cons and pros and currently full time remote work has more cons and less pros than office work for me. This is very much a personal choice anyone can make. If you like remote work then you should optimize your life around that. That is literally none of my business and has no effect on me. But this is very touchy topic on HN and people are doing exact this "anti" vs "pro" people mind set and using very loaded words like "rat race" or relating other side's opinion to actual physical ailments and other emotion driven arguments which just seems odd for a forums that is suppose to be technical in nature.

You fail to grasp that moving to a city or deeper within a city might be an unacceptable quality of life issue, either because of unaffordable rents and house prices or simply because city life is deeply unappealing to many. People take it personally because not everyone has the means or the desire for city life, and going around acting as though cities are the only place one might want to live comes across as deeply arrogant. It's a very "let them eat cake" kind of sentiment which grates harshly against the ears of people who aren't on high salaries or wages.

For huge numbers of people remote work finally let them cast off the shackles of city life while retaining their professional jobs, the point you're not grasping as someone who actually likes city life is what an incredible improvement that is to many people's quality of life, and how jealously people guard this new feature of their lives.

It is almost as if life was full of compromises. Yeah I too want to do nothing, but still live in a mansion and have infinite money, but that's not part of the reality.

If remote work is the most important aspect of a job for you then you should look for fully remote job. You might need to compromise on some other aspect like pay.

If you just want to eliminate commuting then remote work is one option, but you could also just move closer to your office or change jobs to a company that has office closer to you or to a company that has office in a location you wish to move to.

Again there is nothing I "fail to grasp" about this. There are other jobs than the highest paying one and there are other options than to work than commuting two hours to an office. What you don't seem to grasp is that I am not fighting you and you are fighting some fantasy version of me.

> I despise my commute because it's time that doesn't truly belong to me and I'm not being paid for. It's getting up earlier and arriving home later…

Actually, the length of your commute is the result of where you choose to live and where you choose to work. If you decide that you want those to be located an hour away from each other, like magic, that is exactly how long of a commute you are responsible for making.

There are almost infinite places you could live or work. I find it quite amusing that people complain and try to externalize blame for the clear result of a series of their own choices.

aCtUaLlY...

dude be a bit empathetic. Some people might have relatives they have to take care of, and are unwilling to downgrade their job by multiple levels, hence the commute. Others might have children with friends in local school - sure, they can move, but it's the last resort.

I sincerely hate you libertariantsy types. Your attitude works when you are 25-30 with no kids and distant family. And you know what fascinates me? Having remote/in office work be optional, this doesn't impact you in any way. I can happily live without commute, you can go to office for all I care.

> I sincerely hate you libertariantsy types

Huh. I didn't realize it was a libertarian view that one should be responsible for outcomes that are obviously the result of decisions they made (and still make).

> I can happily live without commute, you can go to office for all I care.

Right. A choice that each of us can individually make. I've made mine and you make yours. I am simply stating that one should take personal responsibility.

In general, your employer shouldn't/doesn't care how long you have to commute to work. Why? Because you are replaceable with someone who doesn't have this problem or won't whine about it.

Stop externalizing blame. Your quality of life will increase greatly once you stop expecting other people to solve problems you create and just solve them yourself.

> dude be a bit empathetic.

Empathy for what, exactly? OP can get a job closer to their home OR move closer to their job OR find a remote only job. It isn't their employer's responsibility to endlessly subsidize and cater to the choices of their employees.

Regarding your other assumptions: I am outside of the age group you mention and have children + distant family.

US has bad commutes because of our terrible land use. So yes people should let go of homeownership fantasies, but also we simply cannot fix land use with individual actions alone.

> Actually, the length of your commute is the result of where you choose to live and where you choose to work.

At least in the Bay Area, the minimum length of one's commute is a function of how much money you make, and how small a shoebox you're willing to live in. Most of the peninsula and south bay are completely priced out for me, since I'm not a SVP or venture capital partner making $2M/year. I live about as close as I can comfortably afford, which means about 2.5 hours each way, by way of three interstate highways. If I made more, I'd love to "choose" to live closer to work.

I honestly can't imagine the circumstances that would make me think 2.5 hours each way per day was an acceptable commute given presumed alternatives to make some sort of living. I did about 90 minutes each way ~half-time for a bit over a year and that wouldn't have been workable long-term.

Not everyone can afford to live where all the jobs are. Not all of us are on inflated SV wages.

Some of us put up with 2-3h commute round trip time a day for many years cause it was the only way. Now with remote, that commute is not necessary.

Of course people will choose not to do the hellish commute, if they have the choice.

Not everyone has a choice of employers that are located in a nice part of town.

I work in a mechanical industry, so employers are always located in some ugly industrial zone. And no, I’m not living there, and neither would you.

My job is fully remote, but it's not entirely greener grass. There's almost no emotional connection to the rest of the team, I used to have work friends and now there isn't really even a veneer of that. There's also a real loss of body language and other physical signs/cues you could pick up on. There's also way more meetings and "working sessions" for projects now that don't feel super productive but it's the only way to really collaborate. I also hate having my webcam on from 8am to 6pm with a brief pause for lunch. I am thoroughly glad to not have a commute, but remote work has in a lot of ways actually been worse.

I sympathize with this, how do you think remote work could be made better?

Great question but I don’t have a good answer. All I know is it initially was great but 17 months into remote work and having no real connection to your colleagues and no water cooler discussion has really left a gap in the small things that made work okay. For instance, You don’t eat lunch with your coworkers, no one brings cupcakes in to celebrate birthdays, no one gets a beer after work. It’s all the minor pleasantries that have been stripped away and all that’s left are meetings and deliverables.

> I also hate having my webcam on from 8am to 6pm

Is this a reference to a bunch of meetings or does your employer want to be able to watch you all day?

Some employers want their remote employees to keep their camera on for various reasons, from not trusting their employees to believing that leaving webcams running emulates in-person office environments.

I wouldn't agree to it, but I've heard about such requirements from others.

> believing that leaving webcams running emulates in-person office environments

Who seriously believes this?

Bunch of meetings and we have a culture of webcams on… it’s exhausting.

I’ve now had 10 different commutes in my career (home>office combinations), and I think that the stress/comfort factor is an exponential modifier to how painful a commute is.

Anecdotally - a client who lived in Texas who and had an hour drive with lots of traffic to commute to work each way had gotten a Tesla, and had had it for about 6months (this is in 2019) and he said he loved it, but that his wife liked him having it even more! When I asked why, he told me that she had noticed a marked difference in his emotional state when he got home from work for the better - when he thought about it he realized that the car taking on the mental work of dealing with rush hour traffic allowed him to decompress on the way rather than be more stressed out…

This is the only aspect of their “self-driving” that I find compelling. I’m nervous about giving up control at 60mph and don’t mind holding the steering wheel with cruise control on road trips, but I find stop-and-go traffic unbearable. It is one of the few situations in which I fully believe an algorithm would be less likely to get into a fender bender than me.

Isn't that just "Adaptive Cruise Control?" That feature is available on lots of brands.

Genuine question: what stops you from going out for a walk to have time for yourself? I have been doing it, and I have to say I never thought I would like to just walk around the neighborhood just for the sake of walking.

I expect a lot of people need the forcing function.

It’s just not the same. I’d love an answer too…

I used to get a lot of reading done on my commute. For whatever reason sitting down to read at home is difficult. I was recently on a plane, and probably read the most I’ve read in 18 months. But I’m not sure why being on transit vs. elsewhere makes it easier to read. Perhaps the lack of consistently fast internet?

Yes. I am not "addicted" to my computers in that I feel withdrawal when they're gone, but my ADHD self is constantly tempted to use them. I think the computer screen is somehow a supernormal stimulus [0], especially the super-bright crisp Mac and iPhone "retina" screens that always gave me a slight headache.

0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus

Try reading during a 45 minute one-way subway ride (2x a day) with screeching brakes, people being loud, and the guarantee of at a minimum one "showtime". Headphones barely mask the noise...

My original post wasn’t clear, but my usual commute is by subway not by airplane. I was just nothing being in transit (whether train or plane) makes reading easier.

it’s not the transit, but the severe restriction of other options which allows your brain to settle down and accept reading as the best option. it’s the converse of the paradox of choice.

When the work-from-home started last year suddenly and some people had trouble adjusting, people suggested to continue "going to work" as a ritual - essentially, you have your usual morning stuff/breakfast/whatever, then get dressed, walk around the block and arrive "in office" that just so happens to be very close to your bedroom. While seemingly useless, it helps to establish a boundary and a mental switchover from "home-mode" to "office-mode".

I have started to understand some of my own answers to that question.

Hour spent in city traffic is horrible. Nobody wants that.

But before pandemic I started taking a 5hr drive instead of flying (from Toronto to Ottawa FWIW) . It was the most zen experience of my life. And massive part of it was guilt free nature. I'm going to work, I would've been in a Taxi / security line / plane anyway, but I get to enjoy time away from to-do list and housework and project and obligations everything else.

Going for a walk, I always have million guilts in my mind - I could be vacuuming or cleaning basement or mowing the lawn or doing taxes or or or... Whereas a pleasant commute is seemingly externally forced, completely guilt-free me time.

Again only applies to pleasant commutes, which I feel are a rarity.

--- On aside, How you approach commute also makes a difference. When I had downtown commute I was grouchy mcgrouch upon returning home in my manual hard clutch wrx.

Then I switched to a cvt gas powered scooter. I still did all the same things - I did not lane split or share, I spent same time in traffic. But world has been opened up since I didn't have the hard clutch and roof and a pillar in my way. I enjoyed the stop and go traffic as it allowed me to soak up the beautiful downtown I never noticed before.

---

But most of the time commute sucks and ALL that being said I love my remote work. I am surprised that we are doing marginally better last year in communication and team cohesion and results than we have while in the office.

Not my comment, but I can answer for me. About 8 months into the pandemic I started renting a private office, and leaving my computer there, to avoid WFH. It was the best decision for my mental health I ever made, and I think the commute is an important part of this, because of the transition effect described.

So why not just go on a walk every morning, for that same transition effect? Because for me that would require sustained (or even increasing) effort over time to keep up, whereas the commute requires decreasing effort over time. Skipping the commute is a non-starter, because it has immediate consequences that my morning brain wants to avoid (having to email my boss/client to say I won't be working today). So over time it becomes a mindless, autopilot activity. Skipping the walk is too easy - if I'm in a rush or just not in the mood, I'll justify skipping it, just this once... The mental health consequences of skipping the walk are too long-term and nebulous to concern my morning brain.

I do also love going for walks by the way. But taking pleasure in an activity isn't a reliable motivator for long term habits, because it's so mood-dependent, and also because things get old when repeated daily.

> About 8 months into the pandemic I started renting a private office, and leaving my computer there, to avoid WFH.

Second this recommendation. Since the pandemic I rent (sublease) a small office room which is walking distance from home. Best commute ever. It's a quiet space and gives me a separation of work and home.

Laziness, mostly. Laziness, and guilt because I could do something “productive” instead.

> guilt because I could do something “productive” instead

Taking a break when needed makes you more productive in long term. It prevents burnout.

But sadly there are parts of life, such as school or employment, where looking busy is important. There we learn bad habits, which may take a lot of time to unlearn.

In short term, could you make yourself feel less guilty about taking a walk by deciding the exact route and exact starting time in advance? Then the walk might feel a bit more like "doing your duty"...

I just “commute” to my backyard office by way of a nice, quiet walk around my neighborhood.

The thing about working remote is that you can commute if you want to, and you can skip the commute if you want to. If you work on-prem, you have no choice. I prefer having a choice.

Absolutely nothing is stopping you or the OP from choosing to take the time out of your days to give yourself some space. You don't need a mandatory, expensive and time consuming commute for that.

And dangerous. Driving is the most dangerous activity we do all-day. There are people alive who would otherwise be dead, all because of WFH.

I used to have a 20 minute commute that was just perfect for exactly what quote mentions. I genuinely used to love it. I would cycle or take the subway, driving 20 minutes is a lot more taxing. I'd usually listen to my daily podcast and my entire demeanor would change.

What I loved even more was the ability to fully disconnect at 5pm. Having every evening properly all to yourself is something you don't appreciate until you've lost it.

Have you tried to reclaim that time without the commuting? Walk to a coffee shop and read there before work? I see a lot of "me time" posts about commuting but I think that this is something you can change without commuting.

I’ve worked remote for a dozen odd years now, and I’ll often jump on the mountain bike or take a walk around town as my “commute” to the home office.

The cool thing is that I can adjust the length of it myself, rather than relying on freeway traffic to do so for me.

I can sympathize with this. I don’t miss having to take the time, but I do miss having the time to myself. I often listened to a podcast, or just drove in silence letting my mind wander.

I do a daily walk, but it’s not quite the same for me.

I get it, but to me this is the equivalent of being nostalgic for swallowing rocks to help me digest my food. Surely there's a better way to manage the remote working lifestyle. Additionally, if you need time to do a reset or shift to prepare for work, then maybe this thunk is a solution for people with this type of remote situation. Just don't force it as excuse for company policy for those of us who don't have this problem.

My commute was 30-45 minutes of bumper to bumper traffic on a route that would take 15 minutes outside of rush hour. It always puts me in a bad frame of mind that takes hours to shake off and set the negative tone for the rest of the day at work and then the rest of the evening at home.

That's nice for you personally, but most commutes require people to drive, and they can't space out, meditate, or read. Instead, they're stressed out about being late while causing pollution, congestion, and vehicular accidents.

I've found even the walk to the bathroom, which went from two full hallways away down to a few steps out of my bed, to be a useful jaunt to think about a problem without looking at a screen.

She should get a backyard office/shed/ADU.

Legal everywhere in California. That will create a physical separation as well as mental.

> She should get a backyard office/shed/ADU.

> Legal everywhere in California.

Edinburgh is about 1/5th of the way around the planet from California, and even if it wasn't, not all housing units are resident-owned detached single-family homes (or resident-owned units in multiplexes with individual yards) with sufficient free backyard space for a habitable, functional office.

Edinburgh? that's a very compact City ie out in the sticks is a 20 min walk from princess street.

2x50 min seems super long

If you're not spending that time commuting, you can just take that same time and do it different way.

What's stopping you from setting aside the time that used to be your commute to do those things? I get up 30 minutes early and go for a walk before work.

That’s a shitload of wasted money, energy, and carbon emissions that could be replaced by a babysitter, a spare room, and a walk.

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