Stop Death Shaming
theatlantic.com
theatlantic.com
Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital.
The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet.
Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine.
Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places.
- They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume)
- They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable)
- they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization)
- they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work
- they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine)
All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears.
And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated.
A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view.
They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
The abusive husband has a reasonable fear of being abandoned. The white supremacist has a reasonable fear of losing their jobs to competition. Etc etc
Being able to give a casual explanation for the behavior doesn't justify it. At some point people have an obligation to not harm others.
The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve.
Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort.
Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will die.
I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer.
Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-ame...
I agree with this, but not necessarily for the same reason.
I think this gives a whole lot of people a very clear and easy way to feel like they were still “right”, but to also get vaccinated.
They can blame someone for “forcing” them, but still get vaccinated. This is especially important if they have previously told many people that “they’re not getting the vaccine”.
It lets them out of commitments, and makes them more receptive to real information. Since, when it starts to feel more like you’re going to get the vaccine at some point, you’re more willing to rationalize towards making that okay, rather than rationalizing reasons why not getting the vaccine is okay.
All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly.
Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public).
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-imp...
I’m not saying you should buy their arguments.
You need to give people an “out”. If folks approach it as proving that the unvaccinated are “wrong”, then it just makes them dig in their heels.
Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.
The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.
If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit?
> The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views.
Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.
It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.
Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...
Mocking their deaths won't convince them to become reasonable, but you can't blame people for feeling schadenfreude.
In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".
You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.
If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.
That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
It would be nice if people could talk about this situation in measured calm ways and actually treat reasonable statements as such
And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.
Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.
> Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.
The words after the headline (attempt to) do that.
I'm sick and tired of people telling me what to do under virtually all everyday circumstances, and especially so when the rationale is faulty (or at least up for debate). It gets even more wearing when they take a long time about it or use an unnecessarily large quantity of words.
If you care about stopping the pandemic, you need to create an environment in which someone can safely stop believing their falsehoods.
You actually have to convince people, regardless of whether or not they deserve your effort in convincing them.
Their worldview needs to change. And little changes worldviews better than a personal existential threat.
Like death.
The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it.
I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.
Sometimes it does. I personally know one person who finally got vaccinated exactly because of these stories—and because of the mockery.
The entire flatten the curve narrative is about making it last as long as possible.
With deltas R value of 5 to 8 it could be over by Christmas even with vaccines and masks.
I thought it was about reducing total deaths by not overloading health care services.
You hear the same in places where 90% have gotten two shots.
The vaccines don't work so well. If you want to reduce the curve you need to go out 70% less. No one wants to share that getting a vaccine was never enough. We were told just get a shot and it will kill covid you can go back to normal living. The vaccines are not that good.
I agree that mocking them isn't productive, but at this stage, it feels more like a coping mechanism. When the world around you stops making sense, what are you going to do, other than laugh?
I hope reddit closes hateful subs like this. Here is a similar article about that sub.
Sure, there is a much stronger social policing of personal attacks and sophomoric comments, but within those bounds, some people appear to feel freer to make genuinely cutting comments and express vitriolic opinions.
Moreover, and I reiterate, IMHSO, the more toxic users on HN tend to be primarily reactionary in political persuasion, whereas, reddit has a much more wider political varieties of jackass. Perhaps this is a result of there not being subHN forums to where people would self-segregate.
My experience with people being toxic or negative or whatever has been mainly people being passive-aggressive or hostile, regardless of politics. Most reactionary content here just gets flagged into oblivion regardless of how it's presented, of course. So the unpleasantness that actually sticks around tends to be either apolitical or liberal/progressive (I find neoliberals are too busy trying to make money to engage in petty arguments!).
But, in a few months, all of this shaming and politicizing have done so much damage.
Public health rests on trust, not mocking, not shaming, not coercion.
“Nowhere”? It’s gotten so bad that there are measles outbreaks now.
[edit] They might still.
What is happening today is just the use of anything for the advancement of tribal signaling and catharsis derived from the suffering of the "other."
It exists on every side, acceptability of these behaviors depends largely on in-group vs out-group status of the perpetrator.
Goes beyond tribalism.
Or terrifying.