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Comment by peterangular | Hacker News Reader

There's police around hospitals constantly and if they get a whiff that you have a fake ID they're going to be talking to law enforcement sooner or later.

Also this isn't going down to your corner liquor store and flashing your drivers license... that thing is going to get scanned etc.

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Actual protip: If you're uninsured and need care they legally can't turn you away at an ER. They have to provide the healthcare to get you stabilized regardless if they're going to be able to bill for it or not... which ironically this is a big part of why the insured end up subsidizing the uninsured at the hospital.

Also, if this ends up being you - don't sign anything until you're in the right mind to sign something. They're going to try to pin you to bill your ass off one way or another and if you're half way through a heart attack or something do not sign anything until you can 100% understand what you're legally agreeing to.

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I've often wondered what would happen if you went to the ER, carried no identifying documents, and just refused to identify yourself. Just hope nobody recognizes you there.

Giving a fake name is fraud, and people have been arrested for doing that at the ER. (Fuck America.) But I don't know that there's any legal obligation to give any name at all. If you don't give them a name, you're not lying to them, and oops, looks like they don't have a way to bill you. As you note, hospitals are legally required to provide emergency stabilization without regard to ability to pay.

I suppose the hospital could try to call the police, but AFAIK the police cannot compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime.

I believe legally they have a duty to provide care.

Yes, that's my understanding. So wouldn't refusing to identify yourself be an effective way to avoid a bill, without the criminal exposure of giving a fake name or ID?

People show up at hospitals physically unable to identify theirselves all of the time.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/07/7207022...

Hospitals that accept medicare do have a legal obligation to stabilize patients. But we're talking 'stabilize' as in 'you're not dying'. If you're alert and capable enough to be arguing with people and you're not a psych danger, you're likely stable enough to legally be thrown out on the street.

I'm aware of that. That's different from refusing to identify yourself to avoid paying money to the healthcare racket.

The discussion here is whether there is a legal obligation to identify yourself. If there is such a requirement, it would apply to someone who is fully capacitated but refusing to identify themselves. It would not apply to someone who is unable to identify themselves due to incapacity, because such a person obviously lacks any criminal intent.

There is no legal obligation for you to identify yourself to any businesses that I'm aware of. Most businesses will refuse you services if you refuse to cooperate in paying, to the extent that they are legally able to do so. I think you can expect that a hospital met with this scenario will complete their obligations under the EMTALA and nothing more.

Even with identification, healthcare systems usually will not do more than they're required to under EMTALA. The hospital will provide intensive care to the uninsured DKA patient, since they're obligated to do so under EMTALA, but they will not provide that patient the insulin and other care necessary to prevent them from needing ICU in the first place, since it's not yet an emergent condition.

If there's no risk of criminal exposure, even insured people should start doing this. Hitting hospitals with uncompensated care under EMTALA is one of the few points of leverage we have to fight back against these murderers. Hospitals are, by and large, not innocent parties in this -- several hospital groups are even members of the Partnership for America's Health Care Future terrorist group, which bribes politicians to fight Medicare for All.

It would bring me great pleasure to get to tell a hospital to go fuck themselves and to quit bribing politicians to fight M4A if they want to get paid next time.

If I'm dying, I want the best care I can get. I'm not about to argue with someone trying to save my life to make a political point to an ER doctor who didn't have anything to do with it in the first place. And I'm certainly not about to risk my own health outcomes by withholding the insurance that I paid for to help me in that exact scenario.

Oh, I wouldn't be arguing with the ER doctor. I'd be arguing with the billing murderers, like the one that comes in to shake you down for money while in the ER bed.

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