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Comment by wallflower | Hacker News Reader

I would argue that I have learned more about critical thinking and problem analysis and iteration by taking up Salsa dancing than by coding more. Guys and girls, you don't have to sit in front of a terminal to become a better developer. The OP's achievement list is daunting, and I wonder if time might be better invested in life rather than coding.

The beauty of life is that success is not transitive (e.g. being good at coding does not make you good at graphic design). But being better at graphic design or anything outside coding (try CrossFit, for example) may make you a happier coder.

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After 5+ years in the salsa scene, most of the best male social dancers I've met work in a technical field -- software, engineering, etc. It requires tremendous mental acuity.

EDIT: I should add that it does not come naturally most of the time. It still requires hard (physical) work and persistence.

Being myself a software developer and a (half) serious salsa dancer, I find that intriguing.

I have also noticed there are quite some technical people in the salsa scene, but I thought most did it out of the need of meeting people, after spending all day at work.

Salsa dancing requires some coordination, thinking a few steps ahead etc, but tremendous mental acuity? I think you might get a bit far here :-)

But hey, I would also second taking up salsa classes but mostly because it's tons of funs and a very healthy hobby that makes you meet tons of people. All good!

Awesome to see some fellow salseros here!

I argue that Salsa challenges your mental acuity because there are not many things more thrilling and challenging than dancing with a beautiful salsera while trying to remember some moves, track potential collisions with other dancers (always protect the follower), keep track of the beat, smile, do not think, and (for extra credit) keep count of the measures for breaks usually happen on multiples of eight measures (8/16/24) -and- if you can anticipate the breaks -that is what makes women believe you can dance.

Yes, mentally challenging but lot more fun than writing unit tests under the fluorescent day sun. And I know a lot of engineers and programmers who dance, too.

If you are even thinking of getting started with Salsa or have taken a few classes but have gotten discouraged, here is my favorite article:

"The Magic of Time: The last one standing"

http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/08/magic-of-time-last-on...

half of success is showing up? :-)

I really like to see my childhood friends' reactions when they see me dance, after having witnessed my robot dance of high school years. I was not really genetically programmed to dance that's for sure, but I got quite good with some good practice. Just to say for all nerds out here that have 2 left feet and think they can't for their life learn to dance: practice trumps everything, even in dancing. You need to overcome the initial pain of feeling ridiculous though.

Regarding salsa challenging mental acuity, salsa is challenging on a physical and you might say on an intellectual level, but for me it's really not what matters.

As you say, just way more fun than being under the fluorescent day sun.

Having social danced and taught dance classes in various styles for over 10 years now, I think the reason you tend to see so many dancing computer geeks has nothing to do with "mental acuity," and everything to do with:

1. We tend to be introverted, and are often drawn to dancing because it provides a highly structured way of interacting with the opposite sex.

and

2. We also tend to be obsessive -- it's how we complete lists like the OP, after all -- and thus once drawn to something, tend to have the doggedness to practice until rather good at it. Once you're good at it, a positive feedback loop ensues.

IMHO.

I think you have nailed it. Structured is key. You have a pretty good idea of what is coming. There is a protocol to asking a woman to dance (confidence but a protocol nonetheless). I think this means that I need to seek out more unstructured social environments (but part of me thinks that even the extroverts, they aren't leaving their circle-the-wagons huddle of friend in a big open party).

Also, I think geeks think they can crack the code of dancing, find the secret but then grow through experience to realize it is really dancing not pre-programmed moves (though every lead has a set of proven moves).

Maybe I need to stop thinking about this so much and just enjoy it.

As a half decent dancer myself I think the structured part is really the key to why there are so many geeks in salsa. It starts like a way to hack the social aspect of life with a clear tutorial of how to be more confident there. And it really does work because most women are in fact interested in dancing so it acts as both a conversation starter and a shared topic for discussion. I'm not that sure that it helps for coding though. But it does help with happiness a lot.

As a side question - with all the technical talent in the salsa scene why is its web presence so ridiculously terrible? I actually haven't seen one site associated with salsa that I could qualify as "adequate".

Probably because there is no money in salsa. Many teachers, for the amount of work they do, don't earn that much money so paying for a website just isn't a priority. My teacher probably made a decent amount of money judging by the number of students she had but it was her life.

She would also regularly tell stories of her experiences. A lot of which involved salsa conferences and not getting paid because the only way many of the conferences can actually make money is by stiffing people on payment. It was quite a shocker to learn a lot about the behind-the-scene stuff.

> Probably because there is no money in salsa

The guy behind SalsaCrazy makes seven figures. And he (according to my sources) is not a good social dancer.

The economics of Salsa are driven by the race to the bottom when someone starts giving away classes for free. Most salsa dancers don't drink that much so expecting the bar or club to earn significant revenue from dancers is not that possible (but it depends on whether you are attracting the girls' night out crowd or the serious dancers).

The real money is made in the wedding dance preparation market. It really plays to the competitive landscape of showing off and SYTYCD. The recession has hurt the market some but most upwardly mobile couples will drop $2k for a package of twenty private lessons aimed to get them to the very important first dance as a married couple with style, confidence, and choreographed moves.

That is the secret of dance studios. Wedding couples are their fat cow.

To make money off a salsa conference is an impressive accomplishment.

That's the first I've heard of that site but I can see how it makes money. It's product-crazy. I have no doubt that some people make a lot of money but probably a lot just get by. My teacher also has mentioned how it took her many years to get to the level where she could even begin to teach full-time.

Some teachers might have their own products but usually they are still personally required. It's not unlike programmers selling their time. Many of the teachers do it because they like dancing, not running a business just like some programmers who like programming and don't like the business side. Anyway, it's a fascinating industry to me.

I was into the Seattle salsa scene and definitely saw a lot of engineers get "really good" at salsa. However, you can almost always tell who's a developer and who isn't, based on how they dance. They dance like they're just trying to solve another problem, just a set of steps to follow, feedback, etc. They often forget that they are dancing to music with a woman (forgive the stereotype). They forget to smile, to enjoy, to make eye contact with her, or to care about the music they are dancing to. They just keep running through vuelta after vuelta...it's cool to see how they master it, but it still doesn't look like dancing.

Then again, who am I to judge dancing? I learned the basics in Bogota, Colombia and that's how they dance there (music and connection valued above moves) Maybe the engineered dancing truly is dancing, but it sure looks lifeless to me.

I know some of these people. And they aren't just engineers. The worst is when they try leading the woman through a complicated pattern that requires strong leads - and risk hurting them and the people around them.

I do think it is unfair to broadly stereotype - some of the best dancers I know have full time engineering jobs (one even competed in the World Championship of Salsa), and even if they are "routine machines" - they are trying - getting out of their comfort zone - most macho men are too macho to even put their masculinity on the line by trying to learn how to partner dance.

Remember, the best part of the dance floor is no one cares who you are, what you do - only that you can hear the music and lead a dance to it - to connect through the music and to each other. I don't always achieve that but that is my goal.

And so again it boils down to difference in concept definition: Is a 'best' dancer one who is into the music and connection or the one who's mastered the moves? Treat question as rhetorical.

"When you take dancing lessons, you learn steps and you learn steps and you learn steps. It can go on for a long time. And then one day, you just learn to dance, and it is so different."

- Bill Austin

So 'best' is one who's mastered the steps and still enjoys the music and connection. That's flow, right?

Each item on the OP's achievement list is valuable. It may seem daunting, but you don't need to do the WHOLE list to level up. One step at a time...find something on the list to do, and do it, if you want to get better.

Having achieved about 90% of his list, and having worked with many, many other developers, I can say that I've been in the 99th percentile wherever I've worked, and typically have been the top developer who everyone else came to for help.

And almost every other top developer I've known has had similarly broad experiences, so I don't think it's a coincidence. One friend is a notable exception; he refuses to learn any language but C++ and Flash. His experiences go in other directions; the list certainly is not comprehensive.

BUT, I also have a life away from the screen. I play a very fast competitive sport (badminton) that gets me exercise and keeps my reflexes sharp. I wouldn't say that it gives me practice in critical thinking, but the exercise and movement keeps my brain healthy.

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