Comment by illumin8 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by illumin8 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I read the timeline and it seems like he started in mid-late 2018, was having performance problems throughout 2019, and didn't even get fired until mid-2020.

This is super generous, and while I have a lot of empathy for his personal situation, I think he could have had a much different outcome if he would have been more proactive about managing expectations: - Amazon does have a bereavement benefit that you definitely should take if you lose a brother like he did. - There are many opportunities to get help from doctors and medical professionals and document any disability you might have, which can help accessing disability benefits - While family medical leave is typically unpaid, if you are making $300K a year and were presumably making a lot less before you took the job, I think you can reasonably take a few months of unpaid family medical leave knowing your job will be there when you return.

I feel bad for the guy in this situation, but I think Amazon was very generous and gave them every opportunity to perform. How many years should a company wait for an underperforming employee to perform?

I'm not sure how it's done at Amazon - they are, after all, notorious for driving employees hard - but my understanding is that poor performance over a year or so is usually about the point at which firing begins to be discussed at large companies.

And the problem wasn't that he didn't want to perform or was intrinsically a bad employee; the problem was that he literally couldn't due to circumstance. It's not generous to say "well, find a way to work through your wife's brain cancer and we'll keep you on."

Many things wrong with your comment, starting with the fact that firing beings to be discussed only after a year. It actually begins to be discussed immediately after the employee is assessed to be an underperformer. It's only after a year of bad written performance reviews that they can actually start to do something about it, such as put the employee on a "PIP" or fire the employee.

What were the other things?

At the large company I was at firing wouldn’t be a conversation until at least one review cycle of poor performance (every 6mo), more likely after two. The PIP started at the same time as the firing conversation; before that was time given for the employee and manager to try to figure it out themselves. (Which maybe is what you mean by “is assessed to be an underperformer,” but then doesn’t disagree with the comment you’re replying to, really.)

What's the alternative though? Let the employee continue to underperform indefinitely? I feel the same way here. I have a lot of empathy for the author, what he went through sounds like hell. But I'm not sure what Amazon was supposed to do here.

This feels like a failing of the US health care system and social safety net more than anything else. Specifically in this case having to have a job (when you're least able to keep a job) to continue having medical insurance.

> How many years should a company wait for an underperforming employee to perform?

Perhaps wait until after their spouse has died and see if they recover? Even the idea of an "underperforming employee" is specious at best.

This is why I love Italy and France, it is night impossible to fire someone for things like this from tech companies. Of course, they also don't have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical issues. They understand there is more to work than meeting the numbers. It is something you spend 2/3rds of your life doing, and other countries honor that.

[Oh, and also COBRA can cost $3000-$5000/month for shit coverage. Once you run out of money, they come for your stocks, retirement, and house. Source: I incurred over $100k of hospital debt AFTER INSURANCE from an assault that left my arm paralyzed. Why? If the hospital charges more than 125% medicare costs for the procedure, my $700/month Gold Plan didn't cover it. I was let go due to 6 months of absence from work, and then while unemployed and needing physical therapy, the hospital sent a request for tax statements and they began the process of a lien against my property. A lawsuit ultimately saved me, but if I hadn't been a victim, they would have taken everything. Fucking american healthcare is a joke.]

I’ve gotten a couple Cobra offers in the past few years after leaving jobs, both of them with very solid to great health insurance, and haven’t seen a number higher than $1k/month (101% or whatever of the employer cost). What sort of insurance do you have to have to ask for $3-5K/month? That would be 36-60K a year! I’ve never seen a company paying close to that in benefits. And my current employer has a “cost to employer” under $1k/month for insurance.

Have I just gotten lucky with companies with good negotiated deals? (The open exchange plans generally have looked terrible compared to any group plan I’ve had in the last 10 years.)

I've not paid any more than 1k either.

Is this for just yourself, or for you and dependents? I went on a leave a few years ago, and COBRA was $700/mo just for myself (and I'm sure premiums have gone up since then). I could easily imagine that being $3k/mo for a family of four. Maybe $3k-$5k/mo is high, maybe it's normal, maybe my company has a good deal on insurance. Who knows; the entire system is disgustingly opaque.

This is simplistic. The situation in France and Italy can be horrible in many other ways.

There are choices and trade offs. But don’t think that those regulations in France or Italy are rosy in every way, and come at no cost.

I don't even think you can get a Cobra plan for that much money...was this for your whole family? You must have been on the top tier program at your company...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com