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Comment by zinekeller | Hacker News Reader

> Cryptocurrencies (when done in a way that liberates the user as opposed to being wrapped in centralized fintech) break this dynamic completely.

Now, tell me how to do this exactly? (At least a general sketch?) Because I really think that this is really not a problem that can be seen with cryptocurrency, but rather with how societies work, which is hard to solve.

I don't want to favour one or the other, but societal problems are something that require all of the cogs are working. Even if I assume that people are willing to use cryptocurrencies, oppressive governments can seize digital gadgets out of their hands, much as they can block transactions. I also don't have a solution to this unfortunately, and I feel that this is unsolvable.

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See Bitcoin’s BIP-39.

With crypto, if I can remember 12 words I can freely transport my life savings anywhere in the world and no government can seize my wealth without torturing me into giving up my passphrase. Can you share a similar strategy for refugees using fiat, gold, real estate, stocks or bonds?

This is feasible if you have something for long-term savings. At the same time though, this doesn't solve the day-to-day problems though (like transactions), especially in context of Africa.

I feel like your response embodies crypto critics quite well. Someone asks a question, someone answers how crypto helps and then someone else moves the goalposts.

I am focusing on the article itself, which is if cryptocurrency is feasible to the unbanked, usually in Africa, and if cryptocurrency can solve it. I have explained in another comment why Africans usually can't use banks in genral, and why in my opinion cryptocurrency can't fully solve the problem (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736411).

I personally want to understand from people who understands how they do function if they do have ideas to actually do it in a practical way. While the idea presented by the GP is indeed good in the long run, it still doesn't solve the problem that most unbanked people in those areas have only either a basic phone (i.e. purely calls and text) or even none, which precludes the habitual use of cryptocurrencies. I also acknowledged that for long-term storage away from often-opressive regimes, there are solutions available.

However, unless you can give everyone in Africa a smartphone and build the infrastructure necessary to have a reliable internet connection, I cannot say that, as of what I've read, have a realistic solution to everyday use of cryptocurrencies hold well.

Unfortunately, you've just stated something that is frankly unhelpful. I've read the article, I've read the comments and be very careful since that these types of discussions tends to catch fire quickly. I've just pointed out that for realistic use in this case, it is currently simply impossible in inner reaches of Africa. Even 3np acknowedges that costs on dedicated wallets should decrease (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736599) if Africans will use it. As of now, it's not simply feasible.

If you wanted to understand how crypto can help, you should've asked a question - not declared something about crypto that was both incorrect and tangential to the point being made.

close to 50% of sub-sharan africa owns a cell-phone and internet quality is of little consequence to crypto as any short frame of connection can facilitate much of what was being described in your parents context (which is infrequent "savings account" type transactions)

crypto doesn't have to be the only system of currency and probably shouldn't be until things like cell phones are ubiquitous - this isn't a criticism against crypto it's simply a lack of infrastructure needed to aid crypto in solving every currency need.

Paper money suits people without internet much better than crypto for daily trading - that doesn't mean there is no place for crypto in securing peoples savings. If you want to start saving wealth, you'll probably not want to do that in a society where everyone has cash on hand (which promotes theft) but instead you'll want to make infrequent visits to someone with internet and purchase a cheap device to facilitate savings account types of transactions that you know you can secure easily even in the event your cheap device fails. This property is one of many properties that is extremely valuable for money. Something fiat achieves with large expensive bank infrastructure that even though the concept has existed for at least thousands of years, yet is too expensive to serve people in many many places as this article outlines.

The problem is that mobile banks have existed in Africa long before mobile cryptocurrency transactions have been possible. Is the problem is indeed with the banks specifically and not because they literally don't have anything to save? Because I don't think it's solvable with cryptocurrencies in this situation, mainly beacuse banks there have lowered the deposit requirements to the point that you can open an account easily. Surely if they can't do it despite these efforts, is there even a chance that cryptocurrency, specifically in those conditions, can survive?

if you want to save and don't have a bank within a reasonable traveling distance - what are your alternatives? Almost everywhere in africa will have at least spotty internet within walking distance - the same can't be said of access to a bank. Now if you have identification maybe you can open an internet bank account (although I suspect that's very difficult for countries/areas that are under-served) or you could buy crypto from any vendor and know that it's secure the second you send it to your wallet.

It's also likely to be expensive to send paper money to your internet bank account as you'll be purchasing wire services or similar, whereas crypto vendors could be nothing more than a contact you have buys crypto and sells in exchange for paper currency.

I don't know enough about these peoples situations to know what will end up serving them best, but I do know having options will always be to their benefit and at the very least crypto will be competition on competing forms of currency.

This is only true to the extent that you can exchange those tokens for the things you need. Just as with all other asset classes, once a government makes an effort those options dry up — and the public nature makes it worse because the system is designed to help the government auditors trace your transactions and punish everyone who’s helped you launder funds, which will be priced into the costs which are already higher than the unbanked can afford.

Think of Bitcoin as your personal reserve currency rather than a directly transactional currency at least today. You use Bitcoin as your store of wealth to transfer your life savings safely across borders. Then once safely in a refugee camp or other safer place you could use the local black market to exchange some Bitcoin for the local currency so you can spend it.

Yes, I’m familiar with the pivot after failing at its stated goals. That has the same problem: you need to conduct illegal transactions on both ends which will be expensive even if it doesn’t lead to getting caught, and the volatility is potentially ruinous if you can’t wait for favorable exchange rates with a stable currency.

Maybe not “exactly” but for key management roughly something like the Ledger Nano X (has to come down 10x in price obv): Small separate device that can be used to sign transactions with. Can be used with smartphone wirelessly. This device should also work seamlessly for general 2FA and auth/identification, preferably usable with government services.

Apart from being sold directly to consumers, it could be issued by providers of banking services (lending or payments for example) to clients.

You would also have service providers offering key recovery services (could be shamired)

Okay, I will assume that the government is either caring, doesn't care or incompetent (meaning not actively suppressing this). You forgot the mining side, so how do you solve that? Because, for example, the 50%+1 problem is still there, right, so if you really want a decentralised system, you also need to solve this.

Also, your solution doesn't work against oppressive governments. (Again, I don't have a solution to that, just pointing out that they do exist.)

See my point above. If you can memorize 12 words crypto makes this possible. No other store of value can make the same claim. No hardware wallet is required.

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