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Comment by dotancohen | Hacker News Reader

I could have written this comment word for word.

People get _offended_ when you tell them that you don't have Whatsapp. But I let them hold that hot coal themselves.

I have (and have always had) a dumb phone so obviously no Whatsapp. I don't really undertstand its appeal. Being part of tens of groups that sends you notifications constantly because someone's posted a picture of their cat but you don't leave not to offend anyone does not sound a cool thing to me.

If people need to send me some information they text me. If sending a text is too much for them maybe I did not really need to know what they wanted to send. If I want to communicate with my friends and family I call them like we used to do in the 20th century.

This is so strange, no one in my social circle uses WhatsApp or has ever asked me to use it to talk to them. It’s all iMessage, Snapchat, and a growing group of people on Signal.

Same here, I’ve never even heard someone I know say the word “WhatsApp” in my life.

Usa?

Cause what parent described is common in EU + LATAM

I assume you're in the US. In most of Europe Whatsapp is the main communication platform. SMS is dead and Android is more popular than iOS, so no iMessage either.

Understandably, people who don’t use WhatsApp, don’t think it’s weird that other people don’t use WhatsApp.

People who do have WhatsApp, probably have it, because most of the people they know have it.

It can depend a lot on where in the world you and your friend group are or are from. It's quite popular with the Indian H1B contractors in my office in the US for example but not too many of my US friends use it. Same story with my fiancé and her lab groups which have a lot of European grad students and post docs, it's quite common there too.

I don't even know what iMessage is.

Something something american teenagers bubble colours?

Apple's SMS/IM client. Only available on Apple operating systems.

Messaging clients tend to be regional. WhatsApp is massive in Europe. From what I gather WeChat is dominant in mainland China but Hong Kong still used WhatsApp (though I think they might be coming round to Signal?) and the US, who have a higher ratio of Apple users vs the rest of the world, tend to use iMessage a lot more.

Interoperability between these systems should be a public policy goal. I don't have to buy an AT&T phone anymore to call my friends; not sure why I have to buy iOS to chat with them.

I agree with you but this is a problem that date backs to the 90s (anyone remember Bitlbee, Trillion, Pidgeon, etc?). Unfortunately incompatibility is seen by businesses a feature rather than a flaw -- despite the annoyances it causes for users.

At one point the US Govt did mandate interoperability on AOL Messenger, once it became the dominant platform.

So there is precedent for this, but we live in very different times now.

Interoperability is tricky when one set of apps has end to end encryption as a requirement, and the other set has absence of end to end encryption as a requirement.

Then again, I've kinda given up on email privacy since at least half of my emails go to Google's servers anyway. I'm not sure if we can avoid Facebook having my IP address (or whatever future attack vectors are found after the protocol has been standardised) if I message WhatsApp users from my Signal account.

What if we made a Internet Standard for messaging and presence?

>What if we made a Internet Standard for messaging and presence?

That's a wonderful idea. In fact, we've had such a standard since 1999 (protocol codified in 2004[0])

It's called XMPP[1]

[0] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3920.txt

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP

Not only that, but a lot of closed messaging platforms were originally built on XMPP.

There's been a few open standards. The problem isn't that standards exist, it's that walled gardens are generally more profitable.

In fact Google Talk, Facebook Messenger and Skype were all either based upon, or supported XMPP...and now don't. Slack used to support IRC and not doesn't. There's a term often credited to Microsoft that also applies here: embrace, extend, extinguish.

SMS, MMS, and RCS are examples of such standards, although only SMS/MMS have full support on both iphone and android.

I don't mind the interoperability. Take email for example. Even if you avoid Gmail/Google, so many people do, so Googs eventually gets your email anyway. So we chat, even if you don't use FB, if someone you chat with does, they still get that conversation. So the interoperability provides a buffer or insulator between you and the company you are wanting to avoid.

> WhatsApp is massive in Europe.

You're completely right that messaging clients is regional, but it's even more regional than just "Europe". I'm always confused when people claim that WhatsApp is huge in Europe, because I know literally only two people who use it. They only use WhatsApp because they have friends outside Europe.

I think we need to think in terms of single countries when talking messaging apps. Again take WhatsApp. Pretty big in Germany and Spain, but almost non-existing in Denmark (who instead rely more on Facebook Messenger or iMessage).

It's nr 1 in Germany UK Spain Italy Portugal Switzerland Austria Belgium Netherlands Norway Greece. That's like 90% of Europe.

In the UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, etc), it's almost impossible to live without WhatsApp since almost every business does customer support using it.

Want to get a delivery? You'll be told about it via WhatsApp. Want to order food online? WhatsApp. Want to pick up your laundry? WhatsApp. etc. It's everywhere here and totally dominant. Deciding not to use it would make your life significantly harder.

I tried to precipiate a shift away from Whatsapp the last time they did a privacy grab a year or two ago. But so many people use it for group messaging. The gravity around Whatsapp is enough to prevent people swapping to Signal in my circles.

Now I've got so many messaging apps. I just want one. Only one.

(based in the UK)

How _dare_ they not having xmpp and matrix accounts while I, the real mensch, selfhost both _servers_.

And what's with all the downmods and downright flags lately? I'm trying to be funny here.

No humor allowed. HN is srs bsns

Eh, I think it is a good rule personally. At least for reddit-style low-effort one liner humor, not that I haven't been guilty of posting that myself.

On the contrary. HN loves humor. You just need to put some effort into it (or get lucky with timing).

Generally it's no zippy one-liner putdowns, more than no humour. I think the general idea is that if you want to criticise something, you should directly write out an argument against it.

In this case the joke wasn't even related to the discussion, since neither Signal[0] nor Telegram are self-hosted anyway.

[0] You can sort of self-host Signal, but last time I looked there was no way to change the URL in the client without rebuilding it, and it's not federated, so that's pretty pointless unless you also get all your friends to install your new version too.

Some people are shallower and less humorous than the others, and can't get the reference and joke where others can. I am fine with that, not that I want to be king of HN with best karma of them all. I just like to hang around bright humorous people, not shallow smugs.

The discussion was about some people getting offended because some other people don't have whatsapp accounts.

I selfhost xmpp (ejabberd) and matrix (synapse) servers for my friends and family. When someone asks - and this happens fairly often - how come I don't have [insert evil big tech IM company here] account, and how can I be contacted, I say I can be contacted by means of open federated protocol like xmpp or matrix, using open source apps like conversations or element, having account on one of many xmpp or matrix servers, including ones that I administer.

Most people say 'ok whatever man', but some say tell me more and get to get in touch with me.

Because of my knowledge and skill to avoid Evil Greed, and because I am actively working on liberating people from it, I think of myself as a better man than those who argue whether Signal is better than WhatsApp or Viber or whatever. And at the same time I remind myself I am no better than anyone or anything else in the Universe. And I am quite auto-ironic about it.

Is this enough lines of explanation?

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