Ask HN: Do you tell your salary to people/family/friends outside your industry?
Or maybe you lie about it?
Or maybe you say that you don't talk about this stuff?
Or maybe you say that you don't talk about this stuff?
For tech friends/coworkers I make it a point to discuss salary. I've had too many coworkers and good friends making way under what they could be.
Every time, without fail, that I made assumptions about what a friend was making I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more.
That's considerate of you, but I don't share your concern for two reasons. First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. This is a personal choice they make and it's fine. In fact it's well known phenomenon that's been written about extensively [1]. In my personal network, very few are prone to "job hopping", many stay at the same company on the same apps for 5 or 10+ years. In these cases developers risk skill atrophy, which is a closely related concern.
Yes and no. Yes industry numbers are readily available but I have friends that I consider to be at or above my technical level who suffer from an almost crippling imposter syndrome or "Yeah, maybe in CA but I couldn't get that wage in KY". Also all the companies I choose to work for are smaller (<100 or even <30) and so there is much less data out there on sites like Glassdoor and/or there could be potential backlash for posting your salary since it would be trivial to find out who posted it (even with fudging title/salary). Yes, the backlash would be illegal but it can be extremely hard, if not impossible, to prove and so it's easily to wait till I've left a company for a while before posting that data publicly.
> Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary.
There are absolutely people I've shared info with that decided to stay but I'm much more familiar with "You are making how much? Crap, I need to find a new job". If you are happy where you are and don't want to change then that's fine, I just want people to know what they are worth. Some people get stuck at a place for 5-10+ years and think "Well I couldn't find this salary anywhere else" or "What if I can't learn a new system/language/etc" and in a lot of instance I know these people could do it, it's just fear of the unknown (I'm not going to pretend I don't suffer from this as well).
This is important not just because he is my friend but for our whole industry. Many programmers suffer from such afflictions and many hiring managers are more than happy to take advantage of it.
If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realise their worth.
I've been there multiple times. Both in offers and in finding out coworkers doing the same job making less (I guess I push a little harder in interviews? Or just ask for more upfront?). When a very good friend and I were both leaving our last company I asked how much he telling recruiters he wanted, it was a meager amount over his current salary and I balked at it then told him to ask for what I was asking for. He ended up taking a job a little under that number but had he applied with his lower number that's all he would have received.
> If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realize their worth.
I've done this for multiple people and some people will get it after the first time you talk to them and some of them I have to work on over time. I know it's not "my problem" and I've been told "you can't make people want better for themselves" or "you can't push people to be better if they don't want to be" but I disagree with that. Are there some lost cases? Maybe, I've yet to find one and I wont stop pushing (gently) until they see their market-worth or they ask me to stop. Mind you, this isn't be berating them or telling them they are stupid for making less, far from it, it's me telling them they are underselling themselves and I just want better for them.
This isn't my experience unless one works in a major city.
I'm kinda kidding, but it's complex topic and both sides have "decent arguments"
At the end of the day your salary is not connected that hard to the money that you generate.
There must be some reason why the owners/directors of the companies making the most profit are willing to pay more. While it is possible they are making a mistake, the fact that this pay discrepancy has existed for decades, and the fact the companies are still very profitable, would suggest the probability of that is not very high.
It is also possible that a systemic change like abrupt adoption of work from home across all industries and the country or even world might cause a change in the parameters that made the previous dynamic successful.
I'll truthfully answer anyone that asks but I don't volunteer it to non-tech friends, I don't want to come across as bragging or boastful.
I especially don’t share unless asked because I remember how much of a “glass shattering” moment it was when I realized how much “top tier” companies (FAANG et al) pay. It was like double what I was being paid before. I went from being happy with my salary to miserable. In the end it was good because I studied and got into one of those companies but it effectively tanked my engagement in one fell swoop.
He said no, because he couldn’t/wouldn’t make the same move that I did
So when he asked how much I made I innocently answered because I'm an idiot, it turned out I earned 12000 more than him a month. It was sort of awkward and I wished I hadn't said anything.
$118,000 a year in the greater philly area.
Other than that, it’s only served in my experience to get people asking me for money.
In my early 20s, I used to have my parents help me with my taxes. That lead to them regularly pressuring me for money, and being very new to the industry I made a fraction of what I make now. They have no idea what I make now, and I have in recent years put on a bit of a song and dance about how I’m always broke to get them to ask less.
A while ago I dated another engineer at my company and at one point I shared what I was making with her. She got very upset. It was a decent chunk more than her, but I had ten years more experience than her. I made a fraction what she was making at her experience level, it seemed more than reasonable to me. She made a fuss about it to HR, it was a mess.
Generally I think nothing good comes from sharing your pay. I would avoid it.
I've found the tech salary is much higher than other fields and I've learnt to shut my mouth about it as it can make other people uncomfortable because its 10X what they get.
Salary should be public information, just like it is already in some countries and for government jobs. Here's the salary for the "Ed Smith"s in Florida - https://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=Ed+Sm...
The highest paid is a state judge named "Jared Smith", pulling $165,509.04/year. The only "Edward" earns $113,300.04/year.
When I worked at a public university, my salary was public.
Remember, in many cases it is illegal for your employer to reprimand you for discussing your salary. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ and Colorado’s 2008 Wage Transparency Act (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/colora... )
Also, sudden 10x may destroy your identity in just a year. In my circles it’s called to punch with money. Most people cannot manage that and become hostages of their various delusions.
I mean, great, that's Marxism 101 - "to each according to his needs" - and I can respect that.
But does the employer get to decide if the employee's budget structure is appropriate? Surely a progressive income tax would cut down on the 10x differential, and strong social services would help support the family.
Neither. It is all based on negotiation and people negotiate based on their baseline needs (sorry for this tautology).
Someone who "has no family and spends" the extra time learning salary negotiation can accept a higher risk of failure, would be negotiating from a stronger position.
So I don't see how your examples have much bearing - the company is going to pay for what they can profit from, not what the employee needs. If my father doesn't know what comparable positions pay, he has a harder time knowing if (say) 3% pay increases per year is appropriate for his position.
There are typically 4 reasons someone asks;
a) they make a lot and want to have a dick measuring contest, usually in public. The social score I keep for these people drops markedly when this happens. They dont take it very well if they find out they are packing a small one, the ones who take it really badly - the ones you are on the same level as. Often they will masquerade as being in the d) category.
b) they make nothing and want to shame you. As bad as a)
c) judgement; 'why do you spend so much on X', 'why is your car so shitty', etc. I have might have more contempt for these people than a) or b). They are like financial planners, but unsolicited and shitter.
d) they are really wanting advice, or to give advice. Benchmarking salaries, suggesting you are underpaid, asking paths for their children etc. (If your kid wants to know, make the intro and let them have the conversation). These are the good guys, but sadly a very low % of requests. If you close yourself to the first 3 cases (95%) then this very small category, where you can actually make a difference for people goes away too.
Now that I'm in my late 20s, I won't share it with anybody other than my wife, including future children. Having spent some time in a different culture, and listened to a few too many episodes of the Dateline podcast (it's a thing!), I realize that it really just takes one wrong person finding out to cause a lot of problems in your life.
I know people that get this to happen to them. They get a union job contract, the person that got them the job demands a monthly gift. It's not small but it's not half. The else is they don't get anymore work. This scenario is more common in immigrant communities, not Wall Street.
It stops the dynamic of "oh look he is a fun guy to hang out with" to "dude he makes so much more than me"
I've had past dating relationships fail because the girl felt so uncomfortable making min wage around me. Everything just became about money after. She stopped offering to split bills at dates etc. I had to cut it off entirely
Growing up, I've lived a fairly poor lifestyle. Most of what I owned were hand me downs and I paid through most of college through side jobs and scholarships. My parents are also really cheap so I didn't live with AC in a hot humid environment most of my life
But they like buying nice cars, and I drove that to school everyday since I needed transportation. I got treated like a rich spoiled kid even though I had to work most weekends and summer since 13 on my family's business.
That being said, I avoid talking about salary unless someone asks me directly. Even then I won't give a straight answer, I'll just give a large range value and state "this is what people roughly make with my experience"
I've had a coworker who worked on the same contract doing the same work at a different firm then us. He asked "yo how much do you guys make". I really wished my coworker didn't answer this since we found out he makes about half of our salary (to be fair he is way more junior though). It's made the work dynamic really weird
I try to stress that the reason I make so much money has very little to do with how "qualified" or "smart" I am, but much more with how our society has decided to allocate money and prestige.
That's gotten harder and harder the further I've gotten from the "just a software engineer" path.
I'm still an advocate for talking about it, even when my data points are not as relevant, in the same way I'm an advocate for open startups (and when my startup makes any money, I'll share :P). Having knowledge around how long it takes to grow something, or how long it takes to walk a career path is very important to decision making.
I was very close to becoming a substitute teacher. Then a teacher shared their salary with me. Even with the all the benefits it still wasn't worth it.
But I am usually giving ranges, to the best of my knowledge, like "expect 60-70k" for this or that. Also we have some 2-3 pretty good overviews of IT salaries in Germany, and for most people that's kinda correct, as we mostly don't have these weirdly high Valley salaries, so you can easily tell people "you should be making 50k, not 40k" but not "you shouldn't start working fresh out of uni for under 100k".
Wouldn't you be worried that it could affect that friendship?
It's simply a data point. One that could greatly improve your economic circumstances if used correctly.
The other common reaction is that "highly paid jobs are stressful". But my job certainly isn't as stressful as many other jobs, and the pandemic has proven that tech jobs are resilient.
I think it triggers a kind of existential crisis in a few people. I've been a little surprised at how much we get paid over smaller entrepreneurs and consultants too. I had a friend who was very convinced of the ESBI Quadrant until I told him my salary.
If you are standing in front of someone who makes 5x or 10x what you do, or vice-versa, you probably know it. I know a group of doctors/lawyers who each make 100X what I do. Literally, they are like super rich with investments and properties and the like. Under all normal circumstances, we would not meet up at a party, or be hanging out in the same "store" for example.
My point is, normally, people that make that much more or less than you typically do not dwell in your social circles.
None of them would ask me what I make. I would never ask them what they make.
It can be very hard to find good salary data in my region. So I gladly provide this datapoint to those who ask for it.
I don’t lie about it, though. My memory isn’t the best and it’s likely I’d forget the number I said previously.
Here are some examples that taught me to keep my mouth shut:
One time I met a friend at church who was also an engineer. I thought it would be fun to invite them to my house some time to hack and collaborate on a side project. It became clear pretty quick that we would not work well together although we could still make great friends. At one point he asked me how much I make. Being a fellow software engineer I didn’t even hesitate to tell them. Their reaction made me very uncomfortable. They were so surprised and they started commenting on how expensive my place is (I was renting a couple rooms in someone else’s house at the time so it didn’t seem extravagant to me). A few weeks later I was at church talking with some friends outside and someone comes up from behind and starts telling, “Don’t talk to this guy! You can’t afford him! Trust me! You can’t afford him”. He was attempting to be funny and possibly even compliment me or brag for me. However it made me extremely uncomfortable and it changed the dynamic of a great conversation we were having prior. One that wasn’t about me at all and I didn’t appreciate the sudden subject change.
Another time a friend asked me my salary when I was helping them with their non profit website. When I told them they were floored. They brought it up every time I ever saw them going forward. It seemed so odd that I just stopped hanging out with them.
Both of these stories are from almost a decade ago on a startup salary that most people on HN would think was very low. It’s just such a different world than outside our industry still.
On the other hand, I’ve also used levels.fyi to help encourage friends and family members to get into software if they express interest but want to know what to expect.
I do let people know but the list of people I’m transparent with is very very small now.
On one hand, seeing a trend of employers demanding you don't talk about your salaries makes me think we should share them more...
on the other, yeah I'm a personal person. I really don't want to share this sort of information.
I'm a bit of a self rebel. I like to do things that make me uncomfortable if someone expressly forbids me for doing it.
Family: hard no Friends: harder no Random strangers on the internet: maybe? People I barely know but will potentially see again: absolutely hard no never
I also have a couple anecdotes:
Family: Told my sister how much I make. Now my brother-in-law won't stop making random comments about money. They're not in poor humor, but it's uncomfortable.
Friends: In high school, our friend group was held together by anime. So you had a weird cross-section of people in terms of academic achievement. My friend and I were basically the top two, and the rest of the friend group... let's say they didn't prioritize academics and though we two were a bit odd for trying so much. Anyway, we two go to college, fast forward four years and I graduate with an offer for 80k/yr (where I live, this is 2x median household income), and the standard offer is 50k. I told my friend, hoping that it would help her evaluate her offers. Instead, suddenly the entire friend group won't talk to me. I can understand where they're coming from, to some degree - fresh out of college I was probably making 4x their salaries. But I learned from the harm this caused. It wasn't a big deal, since we'd drifted apart after high school, as friends do, but it was still unfortunate. My peer friend had just accidentally revealed the numeric aspect of my offer, and she apologized to me after she realized how much it upset everyone else in the group.
Dunno. I find it hard to calibrate. I now make more than double that offer, and yet know of many peers (principal/staff engineers) who make double or triple my current salary, and I don't fault them for it. Maybe it's just because I/we know our industry is kinda stupid (right now? for now?) and the money is sloshing around everywhere, so we don't take it personally when someone manages to get a sweet offer, and I'm happy - and proud!- that they manage to get such great remuneration. But I also know not everyone has these opportunities and I'm fairly privileged.
But yeah. I have a very short list of folks I share with now.
Outside the workplace I lose my main motivator: ensuring we're all getting what we deserve.
People like friends/family aren't in the same bucket - so there's less to gain (either for me or them) by sharing this and likely exposing imbalance.
It is also obvious based on the type, length, and frequency of vacations that one takes. Also, how frequently you fly.
In my experience there is little correlation between this and salary.
The more junior people 'holiday' 10-215 times a year, lots of weekends away etc. The mid level typically do the school holiday schedules and the senior staff are all over the place.
On the flip side a middle aged neighbour with two kids who makes 30k a year is on their 4th foreign trip this year, while saving up to finish the sleeve they have been working on for the last couple of years.
Some trusted friends and colleagues know though
I never talked about money when I was starting my career(and earning way less than my peers, friends and family) and do not talk about it now that I make much more than them.
In the US people brag all the time with money. People value other people more because they make money and they value you less if you don't make money. People working in the private sector earn much more that people in the public space.
In Spain it is the opposite. Spain today is a socialist State in which public servants earn in average more than 35% than people in the private sector. Everybody wants to be public servant because it is "safe", even when the State is bankrupted and supported by EU deficit that will end sooner than later.
In places like Africa, South America or South Asia talking about the money you have is just dangerous. One of my family members had a cocaine bag planted in her luggage in Thailand by the taxi driver. She noticed and trew that away but the police man in the airport knew exactly the specific place where the bag was and searched for it again and again.
You better be careful because people like your kids used to the West can really be very stupid in those countries, because they are used to things like a Police system that is not corrupt.
I have traveled to many places of the world on my own alone wearing causal clothes and not spending much money that would have been very dangerous if they knew the money that I had in the bank.