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I work at a large company that changed to become remote first in 2020, and we are seeing similar rates of churn. I am not sure this is the whole story.

In my experience, companies don't just become "remote-first" because they allow people to be remote. Support systems for remote communication, development, and career growth are vital. That's the harder part that most companies don't do well, yet still adopt the "remote-first" label. It's actually really hard to transition to remote and often requires a massive culture rework. I've never personally seen that done well, but I've heard success stories exist.

Just as many people hate it as love it, so I could see workforces needing to massively realign on that.

I think maybe it has to do with isolation.

For most of us, we just tolerate the job/company we are currently at. Social events, camaraderie and a sense of "we are in the same boat" causes people to continue on. Then lock-downs came and suddenly all of that is gone. You are now stuck in isolation with the thing you actually deep down dislike or resent. Previously, going to the office was like fighting in a pit, but at the end of the day you got to escape by going home and decompress. But if you workplace is also your home, you don't get to escape anymore. The same computer/screen that used to bring you joy, now triggers ptsd/resentment feelings. Thus you are stuck with your demon, consistently, without reprieve/escape. Thus people let those feelings build up, often without knowing it, and when that bubble burst, they feel they need to run away and quit. Some might even start questioning their whole career path and the nature of the work, and thus the nature of our society and economy. Thus the whole drive to work gets short circuited by those feeling of resentment when you want to work again.

That's just my personal feelings around it. I get the feeling when I look at our Jira board. Those 10 minutes before standup starts, feels like an eternity. Our scrum master is no longer my "friend", I just see them as a person that cracks the whip at this point. All while being unable to escape it all, since I have stuff that needs to get paid. Oh, and all this is at good employer doing meaningful work. Cannot imagine other peoples' dread if they get stuck in the same loop.

Beautifully haunting post that cuts at the heart of workplace existentialism. While it may be anecdata like so many other posts in this discussion, I believe it grasps an emotional truth experienced by many remote workers in this time, whether resigned or not.

> Those 10 minutes before standup starts, feels like an eternity.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. You could join the meeting earlier and just talk about private stuff with your team members. Similar to what you would do in a physical office. Talk about what you did on the weekend or plan for the next one, what movie you watched, what you'll have for lunch.

And I think it is important to build these social interactions into a WFH environment. The thing that I feel really helps bonding with customers and colleagues, is talking about our kids (at least with those that have kids).

And of course it depends on your team, but in our team it's no problem at all to say you need to leave earlier.

I've said so in some discussions already here on HN: I would go back to the office if commute would be much shorter (by bike) and it wouldn't be an open plan office.

I dislike the amount of online meetings I have now, but it's ok. I try to reduce it by actively removing unnecessary participants and trying to make communication asynchronous.

I just find this perspective to be largely BS. Have you actually worked from home and/or are you really just a CEO worried that this whole office expense you've paid for for years is/was worthless? You are correct that most people tolerate the job/company they are at, and this extends to the bullshitty "make the CEO feel important" things like social events, camaraderie, etc., which you seem to be in the minority for liking, but this is a point for remote work, not against it. With WFH, you get to eliminate almost all of those things, take back control of your life, actually see your kids and your spouse, sometimes even for most of the day, and if you need to tune out you tune out. The after-hours issue of work bleeding into your home life is exactly the same as it was before because you still get the same emails and github notifications and error notifications you'd normally get after hours if working in an office -- nothing on that front changes. The same computer/screen issue sounds like a personal problem but in my case I do game on a different machine so I guess use some of that engineer salary to buy multiple machines? On the flip side, when I did work in an office I actually used my gaming laptop there as my work machine so this really has nothing to do with WFH vs office.

> Thus people let those feelings build up, often without knowing it, and when that bubble burst

How about the feeling of a 45-min to 2 hour commute at the start and end of every day, draining your energy so you start out your day at work already 30% drained, and get home 1-2 hours after work ends, 160% drained, and can't give proper attention to your spouse/kids? Or what of the feeling of having to live literally near your office and being tied down, forever, unless they decide to "relocate" you to some arbitrary location you've never even been to before (oh how nice of them!).

How about that constant feeling of being watched, feeling guilty about something as mundane as checking your bank account balance to tell the spouse whether they can make a purchase, or double checking the time of your kid's doctor's appointment, or (god forbid) browsing HN for a few minutes to unwind?

With WFH you can put your family first, and your job has to just hope that you're getting things done. It's the biggest transfer of power from employers to employees that has happened in a long, long time, and it's extremely positive for the labor force. I hope it happens in every sector, for every job that could conceivably be done remotely. Work will never be the same again.

As far as the media goes, I don't know what you've been reading/watching, but almost every article or mention on the news of WFH recently actually downplays public excitement for WFH and downplays the ~20% productivity gains from WFH that have been seen across the board in the tech industry. The media conglomerates don't want people to WFH, so they say "oh no some people want to WFH they = bad" when it's really most people, and the shift is inevitable and completely out of their control due to market forces anyway. Soon there won't be offices left to work in, because no employer is going to be able to justify the increased costs and decreased productivity of office working.

Been working from home 3 days per week before lock down. Fully remote since 7 March 2020 and been to the office exactly 3 times.

Not an CEO, "just" a developer that is also almost at the end of the rope.

I'm not hating on WFH, just my observation on some things that's been creeping in. I basically go to the coffee shop across the street every single day to get out and see other humans + sunshine (I live alone).

These are good points. I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic (the office was closed down, so it was mandatory) and have no interest in going back to the office.

I wake up and instead of mentally preparing myself for a grueling 45-minute stop-and-go drive (no public transportation options), I can decide to go to the gym, run along the ocean, or read a book. Instead of scheduling my departure from work to avoid the dreaded traffic jam, I stop when it's time to stop and it's sooner than it was before.

I have no interest in meeting with my coworkers except once every two weeks so I can dress up and sparkle like a diamond. In part this is due to the fact that my colleagues are uninspiring people, but even if they were great people, over the past year I realized the toll that commuting was taking on me and I do not want to go back to the old times.

Yes, I agree that remote alone is not the complete picture. More anecdata: I work for a medium sized distributed company and we have seen a decent amount of churn. I have also been involved in the hiring process for backfills/replacements. Candidates have specifically mentioned that they’re leaving their current company because of RTO demand. The main reasons I believe causing so much job hopping now: RTO demand, money, new remote opportunities, demand for senior engineers, nature of existing churn in software business.

I think that the number of people that want to go remote, are not the same as the number of people that we think want to go remote.

From my immediate team(20), there are two people who will go full remote. The _vast_ majority want something blended or flexible. Then there are some people ~3 who want to be in the office full time.

Granted this is for the UK.

I suspect that there is bias in news for remote only, because they are the sort of people who already put out a curated vision of them selves (ie linkedin infulencers) We know the archetype, and we know that they are not remotely representative.

I've had a similar experience in the UK, in my previous job I was the only one who wanted to remain full-time remote this year. Management wanted everyone back in the office full-time so I ended up resigning and moving to a different company for a decent raise, but as far as I'm aware the majority of people there wanted either full-time office or hybrid working.

congratulations!

I don't want to come across like I'm anti remote work. I want a company to support full remote, I think there benefits to how the company structures communications to allow full remote. I just don't think its wise to go all in either way, either full onsite or full remote.

I've had the opposite experience. We had a team of 25 devs in Rhode Island, only 3 wanted to stay in the office in any capacity and all were open to the idea of permanent WFH. Several were excited about being able to move as a result.

Even remote friendly companies are seeing people leave and higher turnover

Yeah I’m not at all convinced this is the explanation. I just started at a company in Australia where their office isn’t even legally allowed to open yet and they have still seen a bunch of people leave.

My hot take is that it’s a few factors.

* pent up demand from last year with people not moving out of fear but now feeling certain of the future

* remote work opening up a larger selection of companies to work at.

* tech companies having record profits and all wanting to expand at the same time.

And I feel like #3 is the most important one. They all want mid-senior developers but every other company wants them too so they go in to a bidding war and their wallets are stuffed right now so the bids are huge.

This will probably continue until a new wave of developers reaches senior level but by then the market may have failed to predict tech companies growing at an even faster rate than they are now.

Record profits and unwilling to provide decent payrises, using the excuse of the pandemic uncertainty.

This. The amount of trouble one has to go through to break the % cap on internal raises isnt worth it. Especially when you have recruiters lining out the door for your applications to companies who won't quibble about salary expectations.

Switching jobs has now become the path of least resistance to get what you want.

Maybe it's because of all the recent success stories? People are emboldened to take the leap.

Maybe it's because if you're remote working, you're somewhat distanced from the people you're moving away from anyway, it's less uncomfortable than hanging around the office for 3 weeks before you split.

This is how cities should have been designed with intent; Less cars, more organic and walk-able spaces.

The robber barons of the industrial revolution seeded their greed DNA as the basis for industrialization - which while obviously gave great progress, but at the heaviest of costs.