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Comment by nyanpasu64 | Hacker News Reader

Replying to a past comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22188146):

> - Violins come last, and it doesn't really matter because they're lazy and they'll take a few hundred milliseconds to really kick in anyway.

I think the assumption that violins don't need strong staccato/marcato attacks is wrong. I've needed it in the past, and was unable to get it from soundfonts which only have slow-attack samples. This issue is omnipresent in off-the-shelf soundfonts, and I've also sometimes seen poor articulation in music I've heard made using commercial sound libraries (which I've never purchased or pirated so I can't judge myself).

As an example of a piece suffering from slow attacks, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua5VJt6jkaU is a nice remix, but feels sloppy because the flute, strings, and violin's 32nd notes are barely audible (goes from attack to release without reaching full volume) and smeared together.

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Yeah, articulation should be standardized in the midi specification. It's always a custom mapping to control it even when proper articulations are available. "Oh cool, custom mapping?!", you might say. Wrong. It sucks, because it tends to make old old scores utilizing articulation unusable because the mapping was stored in some obscure plugin configurations divided amongst many plugins.

It would be great if articulation messages were standardized, and then you could just expect them to be there, and if they are absent, the soundfont can simply fall back to the closest thing available. That kind of helpful logic is not possible with custom mappings.

Off-the-shelf .sf2 files containing full-GM instrument banks simply don't have sharp attack samples. I hope they will start having them, but I don't know what it takes. Are single-instruments (or .sfz files) more likely to have them? Adding support in soundfont players for selectable articulation? MIDI 2? "Just buy a commercial plugin?"

SF2 ... forget it. SFZ can do this sort of thing already, as can Kontakt format and also Decent Sampler.

SF2 is dead. It was never capable enough as a format to deal with what really needed to be dealt with. It is a quintessentially dated technology, and unless your requirements for sample libraries are very limited ("make a gong-type sound when I hit middle C"), SF2 is not for you.

To my knowledge there are no GM SFZ instrument packs which contain enough instruments to play any MIDI file out there (https://github.com/sfzinstruments/Discord-SFZ-GM-Bank has like 10 melodic instruments so far). So I have to pick instruments from the ground up when creating a DAW project (and I don't have a good collection yet), rather than using a unified full-GM bank as a starting point. And don't even think about downloading (eg. Doom) MIDI files and playing them in a soundfont of choice.

What's the spiritual successor to General MIDI? Or is the concept no longer viable for (or even wanted by) mainstream electronic, or even semi-orchestral, composers?

I would say that there is no longer a viable GM-like concept.

Take a look at the libraries released by Spitfire Audio. You won't find anything remotely like a GM-style collection.

There's a buzz word of the day - "cinematic" - that has been defining new sample library releases for a while now. They are definitely not focused on "here's a sort of complete set of sounds corresponding to traditional instruments".

People generally want more unique sounds. Maybe a GM bank is a good starting point for people who will work with fairly traditional instrumentation (even they eventually switch away from the GM bank itself). But it's not much use for people wanting more distinctive timbres and textures, and for "cinematic" work (read: games, films, soundscapes), that's normally the goal. It's also where, for now, the money is.

The most "GM-like" experience I've encountered in a modern commercial product is the Kontakt factory library. It has almost complete General MIDI 1 coverage, plus a handful of random additions (a dozen electric pianos, samples recorded from some vintage synths, an SATB choir singing six different vowels, several drum kits...)

The quality is good, but it's not in the same league as specialised libraries. There are usually only two or three velocity layers (for example, the choir can only sing a subdued "aaa" or an intense "AAA"). The orchestral instruments only come with a few articulations, and the guitars and pop brass only provide one articulation each. None of the instruments have sampled legato.

Unfortunately, I think this is probably the quality ceiling for a sample library with good General MIDI coverage. If you were to add more velocity layers, articulations and legato transitions, the number of samples would start to grow exponentially, and the cost of the library would grow to match. I'm not sure there's any way around it.

I went through a phase where I was trying to put together a really comprehensive collection of samples, but in hindsight it was a fool's errand - you'll get diminishing returns fast, unless you're willing to spend huge amounts of money. Accurately emulating a live performer is a nice option to have, but it isn't actually a requirement for making good music. Huge amounts of excellent music has been made using synthesiser presets, or using instrument samples which would be considered "cheap" or "low-quality" nowadays. As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available, rather than stubbornly writing string melodies which could only be performed by a real-life violinist, you'll do well.

> As long as you're willing to adapt your compositions to the instruments you have available

I've seen SNES and DS games whose sample sets handle staccato and sharp attacks better than the average soundfont out there. The cover I posted is worse than the original DS game in this aspect. I assume the Kontakt factory library is competent enough to get this right though.

I assume sample packs can't handle wide pitch bends and precise vibrato that well either. Synthesis is probably better, but the pricing I've seen is insane (but probably justified considering the complexity of simulating acoustic instruments).

This is quite a good example of the hard limitations of high-quality sampling. If you composed a violin melody line which absolutely needed a fast attack, Kontakt (a £359 library) would give you:

- A "sustain" articulation with fast attack on the loudest dynamic (which also happens to be molto vibrato), but a slower attack on quieter dynamics

- An "attack" dial which can emulate slower attacks, but not faster ones

- A "staccato" articulation which has an instant attack, but a duration of about 0.5 seconds

- No legato, so even if you get the attack right, fast runs and ornaments are going to sound a little strange

I've encountered similar limitations with dedicated orchestral libraries. If it's not the attack, it's the expression, or the maximum note duration, or the speed of an ornament, or the timbre of the specific instrument they recorded, or something else which always dangles perfection just out of your reach.

I suspect you'd have similar problems with even the most expensive sample libraries; it's one more reason to opt out of that game altogether. If you lower your standards for audio fidelity, your musical freedom increases. When you're composing for the Nintendo DS, nobody's going to notice if you manually tweak the attack of your string sample, or fake an ornament using pitch-bend, or crossfade between two velocity layers.

SWAM is one possible escape route, but you're correct that it costs a fortune. It also has high CPU requirements, so you might need to bounce your SWAM parts to an audio track, and you'd have limited ability to put together seven SWAM violins and call it a "violin section".

Has been tried. Check Spitfire's UACC attempt. There are way too many articulations and ways of naming them to get a complete list, and even when there would be such a list, you'll be asking yourself "hmm, this says Long Con Sordino Sul Pont", but this 'soundfont' doesn't have that. What to replace it with?".

Bear in mind that not all sample libraries have articulations. Some of the more modern libraries and plugins include a modelling component, or are pure modelling, which allows you to use controllers to get those articulations in a much more flexible way.

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