From [0]

> A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated. [1]

> This is only slightly lower than with the alpha variant, says Brechje de Gier at the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment in the Netherlands, who led the study. Her team had previously found that vaccinated people infected with alpha were 73 per cent less likely to infect unvaccinated people. [2]

> What is important to realise, de Gier says, is that the full effect of vaccines on reducing transmission is even higher than 63 per cent, because most vaccinated people don’t become infected in the first place.

[0] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l...

[1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.14.21264959v...

[2] https://www.newscientist.com/definition/uk-covid-19-variant-...

Countries with very high vaccination rates such as Portugal or Singapore show quite clearly that all of these statements have been correct. At this point, antivaxers are the only reason why the pandemic is still an issue in industrialized countries.

Who specifically said that and when? What I heard was medical professionals saying we could have those things when people got vaccinated. When political posturing caused large numbers of people to refuse vaccinations, masks, and other public health precautions, those ambitions weren't met but I don't blame the people who said it was possible as much as I blame the Republican leaders who personally got vaccinated but told millions of their followers not to.

It's like saying that flossing and tooth brushing were a lie because you had cavities after only doing either half of the month.

Oh vaccines reduce it by some vague amount, if at all, to vaccinated people whom you admit are at far less risk having been vaccinated? Oh well then go nuts, put in whatever draconian rules you want if it may or may not reduce some spread by some minor amount and means that someone gets COVID in 2023 instead of 2022. That's all the justification we need! Quarantine the kids. Fire police. Make everyone hate each other. Sounds totally worth it!! Yay!!

This is the cult of safetyism. A total inability to process risk/reward and tradeoffs, and eschewing basic logic for "protection" whether real or imagined no matter the cost. All I sincerely ask to people such as yourself is, "What is your long-term plan? Is this forever for you?" Usually, I watch as their brains simply break down on the side of the highway. They have no answer because their logic is so bad they get stuck in an eddy with no way to get out. Welcome to the Church of COVID.

And no, conservatives aren't banning prevention measures. Everyone alive is free to get vaccinated (and wear a mask) as most have even in places like Florida. They're banning punitive rules, and whether it's Florida or Texas or all of Scandinavia, they've demonstrated that there are no worse outcomes from simply allowing people to make their own health choices without figuratively putting a gun to their heads (mandates) or making them do anything they don't want to (masks). Meanwhile, half the world upon seeing this: "Nah nah nah I can't hear you!"

How is one supposed to debate with someone who thinks the sun rises in the west? If you can't even process the basic facts about vaccines - they don't reduce spread but reduce risk of complication - that logically make mandates and masks useless (which is now also being proven in real-world data), I mean, there's no point in discussion. You can say the sky is red as many times as you want, that doesn't make it true. Besides the fact that by your logic this is a new ridiculous equilibrium for life, with PERPETUAL quarantines, testing, masks, employer enforcement of personal medical choices, passports to do anything, and more broadly everyone hating each other's guts. Sounds fun!!! Totally worth it!!! Places like Sweden and Florida don't count!!!