Hundreds of ancient Maya sites hidden under Mexico reveal a mysterious blueprint
sciencealert.com
sciencealert.com
I suppose my reaction is that popular archeological articles seem to effectively defy economics as a force in their explanations, and seem to prefer treating the cultures as being under an impaired superstition about the world.
It seems like uncovering a stadium, airport, or the Washington Mall from our world today and saying it was for rituals and ceremonies, which sure, abstractly it is, but it seems a bit filtered through a lens of studying them as primitive pagans. Nobody shifts hundreds of tons of rock for being seized by astrological magic.
If you start with the loop of necessity that nothing is ever more than it needs to be, we can bootstrap the question of for what was this necessary? It's even more plausible to say pyramids were the product of a policy of Ancient Keynesianism, than to treat megalithic builders as primitive. Maybe I'm just as curious as archeologists are, but if we applied how mystified some modern academics can seem about trade and economics today and then apply that back to studying ancient cultures, I'd wonder if there were some opportunities to reduce some blind spots.
If you read a tiny bit more broadly in pop archaeology, it's clear that they're trying their best to find economic reasons for things. It's a bit insulting to insinuate they jump straight to "ritual purposes" without considering more mundane reasons.
“Rituals” does have a bit of a connotation beyond religion don’t you think?
For example, an anthro operational definition for 'ritual' would be "actions with intentional symbolic meaning undertaken for a specific cultural purpose", where the cultural purpose could be childhood development (rites of adulthood), religious as previously mentioned, or perhaps just a fun activity within the society.
I say all of this but understand that this article isn't necessarily geared towards only anthropologists, and operational definitions may be in order. Just my 2cents
ancient temples. Modern temples look more like shopping malls or other large buildings than the ornate buildings of old.
Cathedrals are another example, where the Catholic church was mainly a vast economic and political colonial machine driven by economics and power, and churches established territory, merely under the convenience of state religion.
When you design any structure, form follows function, and function follows economy, which in turn has necessary conditions, like shortest distances, water, waste, an average 1500 kcal/person/day, security for families and offspring, what kind of costs to impose on invaders, a contract and accounting system for future delivery of goods and promises, credit for crops, tools for leverage, architecture that is the expression of all of it.
When we say ritual now, it implies sympathetic magic. The scientific method is not a ritual, nor is proving theorems, or using geometry to engineer things. These were human civilizations and my point is we might learn more about them faster if we didn't start with the premise they were superstitious and lacked political and economic agency. Sure, if one thinks all religions are equally nonsensical and its role is at best a noble lie, then an ancient one might also be that, but if it's a way to encode and transmit knowledge robustly and sustainably in a culture, I'd argue they were probably more like us than we think when we say they're doing rituals.
I guess maybe you're saying we should try harder to find the economic purposes under the apparently ritual artifacts? Maybe. I'm honestly pretty sure that's assumed in practice. I bet if you talked to an archaeologist on the project and raised a similar point to your point about cathedrals, they would say something like "Hmm? Yes, of course it was something like that." But even if we get enough evidence to figure out the economic or political role these sites played, my guess is the religious or other ritual aspects will not go away.
As for our modern perspective, assuming that ancient people were superstitious is a completely natural extrapolation from watching ourselves, even if that's not where the assumption comes from in practice. Math is pretty solid, and the platonic ideal of science but science as practiced today too often is a ritual, or we wouldn't have all these replication crises and junk COVID papers.
I suspect the friction point may be about whether the idea or meaning of a ritual is an encompassing abstraction for general social shared experience vs. a specific sub-category of experiences that I am saying requires sympathetic magic. My view ignores whether there are rituals that are not sympathetic magic, and I'd posit there aren't, and that ones that don't have it are are just habits. However, the exceptions others point out should show the limits to that heuristic as well.
Very much agree some science has been ritualized, which imo de-sciences it, and to me this discussion of our relationship to meaning is a really important idea at the root of this question. It's related to what we deal with as hackers, which is whether our abstractions are meaningful and powerful tools for illuminating complexity, or just a layer of obfuscating jargon.
A criticism I think we might agree on is crappy social science and theory papers are like a "Chinese Room," where the authors have taken opinions, transliterated them into something that gets published using some stats and p-hacking and formal methods, but it's as though they have never had "real" understanding of the subject or material, and the crossover is that this chinese room meets sympathetic magic pattern resembles the category of ritual I was describing.
It's helpful to refine this stuff, thank you.
The ritual use of these sites usually occurred afterwards once economic situation and custom solidified it as an area of rulership. Often cargo-cult'ing what would have been a genuine healing process.
Large stadiums are for spectators to observe the best football players as part of yearly ceremonial games.
Certain parks are for ceremonial gatherings on certain time of years, where we put traditional ritual ornaments (e.g.: christmas decoration).
It's just the OUR rituals have names and we don't think of them as rituals, but we have plenty of things that are ritualistic and ceremonial: the olypmics, new year, halloween, easter, friday drinks at the office, birthday parties, etc.
https://www.sfu.ca/~palys/Miner-1956-BodyRitualAmongTheNacir...
At risk of spoiling, Nacirema backwards is 'American'.
He gives evidence for shamanic influences at the origin of western civilization, namely through the friendship of Abaris and Pythagoras. Abaris was from the Steppes—and potentially from as far as Mongolia. He then speculates further about the shared cultural lineage between the Americas, which was populated by the steppe people circa up to 10k BCE, and the emergence of complex society around the Black Sea. A lot of speculation but all grounded in well-cited evidence. A short but fun read.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56269264-the-dawn-of-eve...
They are every bit as smart (some might say, “smarter”); they just don’t have the social, physical, and logical infrastructure, or access to resources, that more developed societies have.
I think that was the premise of Guns, Germs and Steel.
Individualism and collectivism are tightly woven together. Both are needed, its a mistake to think that you can have one without the other.
And actually many of the pioneering individuals had to transcend the boundaries of collectivism to actual make the world better. Tesla comes to mind.
IQ is not the only thing that improves. Different types of memory have improved over the same time periods.
Even from a theoretical perspective it doesn’t make sense that people who complete manual farm labor their entire life would be as intelligent as someone today who is educated for almost 2 decades.
I assume you never had to "complete manual farm labor [your] entire life". In truth, a dumb farmer is a dead farmer. If you're a farmer and you're dumb your crop fails and you can't eat, and if you can't eat you die.
I know you said (paraphrasing) "not as intelligent" rather than "dumb", but farmers today rely on science and technology developed by others to grow their crops and not lose their harvests. People in ancient times didn't have access to the same science and technology and they had to figure a lot out themselves. Staying alive, feeding your family and your community (or having your crops stolen by warlords and bandits, as it were) year after year, was a much harder test of intelligence than an IQ test, and with much higher stakes to boot.
But I think modern city-dwellers understimate the amount of intelligence it took, for example, to develop all the crops and farm animals we take for granted today. Since we're talking about Pre-Columbian Americas, think for a moment of all the staples of our diet that were developed by those ancient civilisations that didn't even have writing: potatoes, corn, tomatoes, eggplants, beans, pumpkins (from which courgettes are derived), bell peppers, sweet potatoes, and then cocoa, tobacco and coffee. And that's just the staples, by my own definition of foods I couldn't cook without.
And everywhere else you look in the world you find plants and animals that were developed by people who had no knowledge of genetics. They did it empirically, painstakingly, over generations. But they did it because they were just as intelligent as anyone trained as a scientist in modern times. If all those ancient farmers were not at least as intelligent as modern scientists, we wouldn't have the mad variety of food we have today.
All these were not developed by people who lacked intelligence, but I think you are right to suggest that an IQ test would find those people to be less intelligent than "someone today who is educated for almost 2 decades". But that is a bug, not a feature.
The intro says it all. Jared Diamond is a damn smart cookie. I don't know if he still works there, but he used to be a Harvard professor, so he hung out with a lot of smart cookies.
He wrote the book, because he was hanging out with New Guinea hunter-gatherers (I believe they hunted and gathered heads).
He realized that a lot of these folks were every bit as smart as his peers, and wanted to find out why they didn't come out of the scrum as a more advanced society.
is Graham Hancock, who has written several famous books about the questions of what the loss of the library at Alexandria, to fire, did to the current ideas of history.
This one doesn't seem to have a lot behind it. There are a handful of nice coincidences, but that's all.
And Mayans are positively modern by the ancient timelines (e.g. Egypt is more ancient).
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13426005-the-great-divid...
104 points|samizdis|7 days ago|12 comments
I always wonder how justified these inferences are. If future archeologists discover the ruins of, say, MIT's Infinite Corridor, will they conclude that it was a ceremonial site for the winter solstice? Obviously archeologists have additional historic context to feed these inferences, but you do have to wonder about the degree to which highly-visible and naturally enduring-- but possibly superficial and culturally unimportant-- features of these sites lead to skewed conclusions.
Others have a similar alignment on summer Solstice or winter solstice (the longest and shortest day of the year respectively)
It _may_ be a coincidence, but I don't think any modern building has a window on both sides of the building where the sun rises on summer solstice and shines straight through both windows. If we do have any such buildings, I'm fairly certain it's by design.
OTOH, there's some ruins where it aligns with sunrise on _some_ random day, and that just feels like a coincidence. Like dropping a pencil on the floor and claiming the direction in which it points has some special meaning -- if you look hard enough, you'll find a meaning to give to it.
> If we do have any such buildings, I'm fairly certain it's by design.
Right, so imagine you found a contemporary building with this feature. Would you conclude that the building's purpose likely involved cosmological rituals, or that the architect thought the alignment was neat?
It's possible for something to be a custom but still be superficial. The sun can be very important to the Mayan people and cause them to design their buildings around its schedule, without the building being specifically meant for sun-related rituals.
Imagine being an archeologist in the year 2650 and discovering all those decorative lions on large buildings built in the 1900s. What lion-oriented purpose did these buildings serve?
We’ve invested a LOT into immersing people into past worlds - think Jurassic park for dinosaurs, plenty of TV and movies about Roman times etc. VR would make all that seem so dated and boring.
Work up a sweat running from a T-Rex - quick shower and off to work!
A non-significant plot detail involves organisms being fitted with neural capture devices to record full sensory stimuli, before being killed/eaten by other organisms. These neural recordings are then sold to wealthy buyers who want to experience novelty.
I am pretty sure if you came "to visit" aka a tourist, you likely would not have lived too long there to settle down.
Unless you brought some modern day magic, like a gun or a smartphone, to convince them you are send from the gods and not to be sacrificed just yet.
They literally murdered babies regulary. Why would one want to visit those, except for hardcore anthropologic studies?
And subsistence farming probably did differ, depending how far away the next empire was. Some lived in total slavery and dependency and some quite undisturbed pretty much on their own (there are some villages in remote greece areas for example, claiming to never have been conquered.).
"I would have loved to live in ancient Maya or Aztec times. Playing ōllamalitzli with the boys, cracking open some cocoa, in the evening watch a proper offering to the sun god. Maybe a bit more violent and shorter than modern life but definitely more exciting."
The thread was literally about people wanting to enjoy human sacrifice and I expressed my disgust with that.
I am not anti-mayan, nor anti aztec, nor anti historic-german tribes who practiced human sacrifice, too (which would be my heritage). There are many interesting things in their way of life. But I am anti to people who like those cultures today, because of the blood and gore.
So anyway, expressing interest in human sacrifice, is ok here, but not expressing discomfort with that, because this might cause flame wars? Well, good to know.
Perhaps it would be helpful to explain how this becomes a moderation issue. It's because we can't play both indignation games and curiosity games at the same time. The former very quickly drowns out and burns up the latter. HN is supposed to be for curiosity games. Therefore when people start playing indignation games (and that is certainly not just you—the temptation is ubiquitous) we try to get them to stop and to return to the intended spirit of the site.
Yes, maybe I should have just asked, what exactly does he mean by "proper offering to the sun god" in the combination of "maybe a bit more violent" but "definitely more exciting".
Because that just sounds like human sacrifice in that context to me. Along with other quotes like that in that thread. "https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29129436" So clear, that I did not see much point in asking. So yeah, I got a bit "agitated" with that. Still, in my perception I got the mod warning, for expressing disconcern with peoples lust with human sacrifice. And those people did not, because they expressed their desire in soft terms.
It is allright. I probably just seek more other places now again.
The downside is that maize isn't as nutritious as wheat or rice and needs to be more heavily supplemented with proper protein from meat or pulses - or the human being becomes malnourished.
>Easily obtained, what is more, for maize has always been a crop that demands little effort. The archaeologist Fernando Marquez Miranda has given us an excellent account of the advantages enjoyed by peasants cultivating maize: it required them to work only fifty days in the year, one day in seven or eight, according to season. They were therefore free, perhaps a little too free. The maize-growing societies on the irrigated terraces of the Andes or on the lakesides of the Mexican plateaux resulted in theocratic totalitarian systems and all the leisure of the peasants was used for gigantic public works of the Egyptian type. (It is arguable whether the cause was indeed maize, or irrigation, or the dense population of societies which became oppressive from sheer weight of numbers.)[One]
[One]https://archive.org/details/BraudelFernandCivilizationAndCap... p161
...it was most definitely worse than others.
Wikipedia has a nice article on Mayan human sacrifice [2]. It all sounds so brutal, but then again, so is Squid Game.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogenics_and_the_Maya
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Maya_cultur...
I'll offer that was probably not any more common in Mayan life than ours now and those glyphs and stories are a sort of example used to keep folks in check or aggrandize the rulers of the day and in regards to those not much has changed.
Modern day countries participating in human sacrifice and mass murder would similarly be invaded and the history of their actions would be altered. See: Germany in WW2.
But who are we kidding, the Romans also built massive structures where they could watch people kill one another and/or get eaten by lions. The shape of those structures can definitely still be seen in the design of modern football stadiums.
Edit: autocorrect is messing me up
In this sentence there are 0 facts and 4 brazen speculations.
Edit. Although I agree with at least one speculation:
"they were representing cosmological ideas through these ceremonial spaces"
Ours is the civilization in history to build urban wind canyons, buildings with wide open roads between them. We also have less people occupying those spaces than even moderately sized European towns.
I climbed a pyramid in Guatemala a few years ago on a trip there and chatted with the park rangers there. At first they were kinda of standoffish, which is common, but I learned that when I took out my little "Spanish for Dummies" handbook and cracked a joke about me needing it they'd laughed and warm up to me. Being humble made an amazing difference.
It can get pretty hot there during our winter months here in the US when I went there and I finally realized just a few days before at a different site on that trip that on all of my trips the one thing in common when you climb those is a wonderfully refreshing and cooling breeze, whereas in the forest below them it was hot and muggy, and I mentioned that to those Mayan Park rangers.
They instantly became excited to talk to me about that. They told me that is exactly why they were built and what they were used for, and emphatically pointed out they were not built for "chopping off their enemies heads" like the archeologists that come from the US and Europe like to opine and imagine they were used for.
I was kind of shocked by that, and their disdain for those foreign archeologists that keep saying they were, which they made very clear to me.
I got fairly well torched the last time I mentioned this here but I think it's important to share because it's so easy to overlook. I overlooked it for quite a long time myself.
Just a few years ago my wife and visited the Chokia site near St. Louis, MO on a vicious hot and humid summer day and it's there too. So you don't have to go to the Yucatan to experience that wonderful cooling breeze on a pyramid because climbing that big mound offers the same cool breezy relief, and it's undeniably there while just below it is not.
Now... to put this into proper prospective you have to spend some time below those pyramids working a bit. Working up a sweat for a few hours in the sun like real labor does for you. Then go climb that mound. It's the equivalent to modern A/C.
The Mayans will tell you that's why they were built. It's fair to say some were modified over the years to be more ceremonial, like Uxmal for example, but all around even that one are many lesser structures with perfect places to sit and refresh in the cool breeze to be found on them.
If you go to Tulum you'll notice that in the parking lot it's hot and humid and the air is dead still and there are no tall structures anywhere. But if you walk to the edge of the cliff overlooking the ocean you'll find the cooling breeze. They didn't need a tall structure there. That was where they took their work breaks.
We need to update our take on those because that is too common and too easy to prove and it's what the Mayans themselves say is the reason those structures were built.