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Comment by dexwiz | Hacker News Reader

Do you work with a designer? I’m convinced most of the push for JS apps as pages is mostly perpetuated by designers who don’t know how the DOM works and feel the need to redesign the wheel on every project. I work within a company that provides a design system and a platform of hundreds of generic component, but individual designers still always want to push their particular vision.

I think if most designers took existing web elements and tried to build a UI, instead of drawing an arbitrary picture and asked devs to implement, we would have much less JS overall.

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Product designer and HTML/CSS person here, and in my experience it is the opposite. Designers and front-end focused people wh get a chance to work with Vue love it because it actually respects basic HTML/CSS/JS and doesn't encourage doing everything in JS, unlike React which basically forces your hand. This makes working in Vue (and Svelte) so much more accessible to people who are great at HTML and CSS but not JS as much (and in my experience many React devs are great at JS and terrible at HTML/CSS).

Designers more often know HTML and CSS over JS, so it is unlikely they are the ones pushing for JS solutions. It is the developers who don't know how to implement designs without falling back on JS for everything who are causing this paradigm.

That being said I blame a lot of this on design tooling as well. Figma and Sketch are custom rendering engines that just don't understand HTML and CSS and therefore give no opportunities for designers to learn how the web works. Fortunately a new generation of design tools are coming that are built on HTML/CSS renderers that feel like Figma but actually output usable code for devs to interpret into their projects.

> Fortunately a new generation of design tools are coming that are built on HTML/CSS renderers

These days I spend more time in browser devtools than Figma, and honestly I'd prefer a more visual way to edit code directly. Something like Webflow but without all the cruft behind it. Preferably built into devtools, maybe as an extension

No, we don't have a design team, we're too small for that.

Just that our backend is already built using Django many many years ago. If I need to add some interactivity, I use jQuery currently. Looked into Vue and it allows us to keep everything as is in the backend and use it like jQuery.

I shudder everytime I need to install npm, webpack, gulp, etc..all the JS tools feel super flaky, unnecessary and does not inspire confidence in the tooling. That's my take anyways.

Lot of developers don't have the priviledge of starting a new project. It's an existing doctors appointment website or some shit people cobbled up in PHP in 2004 that is still running and we need to maintain it.

  > "I shudder everytime I need to install npm, webpack, gulp, etc..all the JS tools feel super flaky, unnecessary and does not inspire confidence in the tooling. That's my take anyways."

For context, I started doing web dev back in ES5 JS, jQuery, Angular.js (1), and server-side templated HTML views days.

I write in a lot of other languages as well, and I would hear people say this and not get it. I thought to myself:

"It's not THAT bad. I think the experience is fine."

Then I wrote an app recently on the JVM. Sweet jesus the JS/Node ecosystem is a nightmare + house of cards.

The JVM and CLR (.NET) have their stuff together. I need like ~10 dependency libraries to do a large project, and often times they are over a decade old.

The tooling is on another level.

I don't have PROBLEMS writing TS apps, and the experience is good. But some of them have a dependency tree that span thousands of packages, and I've come back 2-3 years later to try to run a project and had some downstream dep break, and then updating fails, and then...

I know it's somewhat of a meme, but this is unironically why I find Deno interesting. (Disclaimer: Haven't shipped anything with it)

Especially since with the most recent release, they have an option to emit Node-compatible JS bundles from Deno code.

I totally identify with your aversion to build tools, but things have changed for the better in the last few years.

My advice would be to check out Vite, and use it with Vue. I've introduced Vite/Vue2 to a pre-existing Django project and couldn't be happier. I've explored a number of different approaches for integrating Vite and Django, and this blog had the best approach, IMO: https://weautomate.org/articles/using-vite-js-with-django/

I find that Svelte is the most "jQuery-friendly" of the frameworks. I can easily add a single Svelte component back into other wise static pages without requiring anything other than a simple build tool to output the JS + css. It's really the best of both worlds – sprinkle it in where needed, or go whole-hog.

Yeah, I really like Svelte for this. I did a whole blog post this way, with little embedded animations to show various operations on linked lists. Each of the animations is a Svelte component, but the surrounding page is just a static HTML page created from Markdown (using Jekyll as the generator).

It's nice that Svelte components can be independently mounted like that.

Right click > View Page Source, and scroll to the bottom to see how all the Svelte components are mounted: https://daveceddia.com/linked-lists-javascript/

To be fair, the same thing would be possible with React or the other frameworks. I do like that it's only 29kb of JS for all those animations though (and most of that is the SVGs, I think).

Do the designers you work with have experience with front-end development, or have access to your design system in their design tools?

It sounds like an issue that can be resolved with some communication

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