Comment by fecak | Hacker News Reader

Comment by fecak | Hacker News Reader

60 hour weeks at 39K amounts to under $15/hr (depending on the value of any benefits package), so you have to keep that in perspective when weighing your options. If you haven't had a raise in a long time, are working holidays, putting in the kinds of hours you're putting in, and having it impact your personal life, it's obviously time to move on.

One immediate idea would be if you could potentially freelance for a few different companies that maybe weren't busy enough to justify hiring someone full-time to do what you do. I don't know enough about what you actually do to provide concrete advice on this, but I would expect there are smaller companies that don't do the same level of international freight, and those companies probably would rather hire a freelancer / contractor to work n hours per week instead of having you on full time.

Contractors are typically paid at a premium, so if you could find a handful of companies to pay you maybe $30/hr for what you're doing, you could work half as much and make quite a bit more than what you're making now. Again, the wildcard here is the value of your benefits package, and what it would cost for you to buy benefits in the open market.

>60 hour weeks at 39K amounts

39k is my base, at 40 hours a week. The 60+ hours a week, 6 days a week, is more a commentary on how my industry is completely slammed and people are quitting left and right just creating more work for those of us that are still there making work even less enjoyable. Add to that this is our traditional peak where it is already our busiest time of the year.

The OT is about the only nice thing right now, but when I'm on like week 30ish of it with literally no end in sight, it stops being nice too.

The people who are quitting, where are they working now? Can you work there?

This exactly. You sound very risk averse. If you're going to take a small pay cut to work 40 hours at Target paying 15$ an hour this is exactly what you should do. You're clearly being burnt out and that's likely reflecting in interviews and job searches. Just like with dating desperation isn't an attractive trait when an employer looks at you.

Bear in mind that risks are different when you have a lower salary. The risk for one person might be "have to sell some stock", for someone else it might be "homeless in a month".

Exactly. We don't even have a month of our gross income in cash savings and outside of that just my meager 401k that would even remotely be touchable (with great penalty) in a "whoops, I quit my job and it didn't pan out" scenario.

That's a big difference. That doesn't mean you shouldn't leave your job, but if you're getting paid overtime the 60 hour weeks are a lot different than if you were straight salary with no overtime. You are working too much perhaps, but you are not "giving" any of your time to your employer for free.

When people start quitting, the simple economics of it may lead to an increase for you. Your value has increased as others quit, especially since you've been there for so long and probably know the job better than others. Your replacement cost is high right now, so now would probably be a good time to ask for a raise (even if you are looking to leave).

>When people start quitting, the simple economics of it may lead to an increase for you.

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>so now would probably be a good time to ask for a raise

That's not how things work in the "real" world. That might be the case at a tech company, or a startup, but companies like mine have set-in-stone, extremely rigid, pay scales. They don't just go "oh hey, here have more money" and if you go "I want a raise" they go "too bad, that's not how this company works, your pay is determined upon your job, your market, and your merit increases". Everyone makes roughly the same give or take a couple of percent.

Which is why you have to leave. There are plenty of companies desperate to hire right now. Most of them are not willing to increase pay to get people. They are living in yesterdays world and haven’t caught up yet. Don’t work for them. Keep applying until you find someone who pays better. The best part is that people who pay you better also tend to treat you better too.

Understood. I wouldn't generalize this as "the real world" though. If you've been in the same place for 13 years, you probably don't have a ton of experience in "the real world", and because of that, you think where you work is the norm.

There are tons of non-tech companies that don't have rigid pay scales. Almost any small company (under 100 employees maybe) might have targets, but they don't have defined 'pay bands'.

I read in another comment that you're doing data entry (that wasn't what I expected you did). Data entry is probably considered a bit of a commodity, as companies are probably confident they can typically find someone to quickly learn how to do it and be effective. So there wouldn't be much room to negotiate a higher salary when they know they can easily replace you. But if they truly need the work done, and they are losing people and unable to replace them, eventually you'll see salaries go up. It's simple economics at work.

If you still get the exact same pay as you did in 2008 than you can definately talk to your employer.

My employer had rigid pay, but they worked around it to hire me and then gave me a "market adjustment" when a few other guys quit.

We both knew some of the other guys converting from contractor to FTE had negotiated a higher salary because they didn't have any family commitments. They probably sensed I was unhappy; but didn't realize I was sticking around until my 6 week paternity leave was come and gone. Now I might stay another couple years, assuming they continue to value me.

This is a pretty common story these days. I don’t know if you feel like you have leverage or if you’re perhaps too worried they’d call your bluff. But go tell them you want a salary adjustment. Make your case, and ask for like $5 or whatever extra you feel is right. Also, OT doesn’t have to be paid at 1.5x, that’s just the minimum. They can require OT, but you get to decide at what rate. So if base salary isn’t flexible, you can extract more from the situation this way. Or, use it as a way to avoid being scheduled for OT.

The state of the world being what it is, I see a lot of movement happening at your wage level. It’s a good time to get more and set the limits you’re comfortable with. I feel like many folks have never felt they have the power to negotiate and in this market, you do.

Anyways, I had no advice on your original question but thought starting with improving your current situation to accelerate the education track would help. Unfortunately, most well paying careers do require a degree and you’ll hit that obstacle throughout your life. So, if you do pivot careers, still get the degree. Because next time when you change employers it will still be a basic screening thing that will hold you back.

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