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Comment by WalterBright | Hacker News Reader

I know that some people are predisposed to addiction. It's harder for them, sure, but becoming an addict is still a choice for them. I know some who chose to get and stay clean, too, despite being predisposed.

I wager that poor people are far better at recognizing addiction than non-poor. I hired a stoner once, not recognizing it. He robbed the company blind to pay his dealer.

Social workers are always trying to get the homeless addicts into rehab. They generally refuse to. It is their choice, not lack of money. In fact, I suspect that the lack of money is caused by their choice to be addicted. After all, addicts lose interest in their jobs and employers don't want stoners and drunks coming to work.

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A heartless and uninformed perspective that is all too common among people born into privilege (you may not have been but in my experience, most people who believe this were).

The majority of addicts are people who have experienced trauma. Often this is childhood trauma, specifically sexual, emotional or physical abuse. Of course it may also have occurred in adulthood. Veterans are one common example but there are millions of other causes.

Shit happens man. You can be an armchair judge but it’s all too easy to go off the rails in this world. Be compassionate! Instead of “you made some bad choices” maybe try thinking, “there but for the grace of god go I”.

I never said compassion was unhelpful. If compassion helps an addict choose to stop using, great! But it's still, in the end, the addict's choice.

You could choose compassion but instead you choose judgment.

Asserting that people have agency over their lives empowers them. That does not preclude compassion for the state they're in. Not at all.

> But it's still, in the end, the addict's choice.

It seems to me your language above suffers from a false dichotomy.

One might start with a binary question such as "Do we have free will or not?".

However, a better question is "Under what conditions and to what extent are we conscious of our choices, rational in how we evaluate them, and informed enough to predict how they will play out?"

A fairly useless way to think about when it comes to solving problems in our society.

At the end of the days, people's choices are determined by large number of factors, most of which we are unaware of or currently ill equipped to understand.

It would be like a person having a seizure and people deciding to blame said person for making a choice to be corrupted by a devil.

A seizure is not the same thing at all. Nobody can choose to have a seizure, or choose not to have one.

A seizure is not the same thing at all. Nobody can choose to have a seizure, or choose not to have one.

Nobody chose anything without being dictated by physics, biological, sociological, and cognitive factors.

Seizures were once thought to be caused by sinfulness. We used to think problem gambling was a decision, until we discovered a drug that can cause it. I don't think we know why addicts become addicts just yet, so it might be a little early to orate upon it.

This is a fun one, let's take the case of mental illness.

Assume we know the person's addiction and subsequent dysfunction is from said mental illness. The person doesn't want to be treated, as is often the case. Do you

A: let him carry on as is, resulting in both self-harm alongside other externalities

B: Violate his right to self determination and have him committed to a mental institution.

How much of a choice is it to be attracted to a given individual? Or to crave a certain kind of food? Or to be consumed with a specific kind of work? Or to care for your child?

I.e. I think we overestimate how much of a 'choice' certain outcomes are for most people.

I agree with this.

I’ve often contemplated that given that the part of me that has a poor work ethic and refuses to get help has generally won out, I would easily be on the streets if I was born into a family of low socioeconomic status, rather than having lots of savings and living in a nice apartment. Also, I’ve spiraled downwards many times, and I’m lucky that food, isolation, internet are my vices, rather than hard drugs.

In the times I’ve finally “decided” to improve my life, I honestly have no explanation for why I did that, versus continue to spiral downwards.

> In the times I’ve finally “decided” to improve my life, I honestly have no explanation for why I did that, versus continue to spiral downwards.

It's interesting how much these kinds of choices are affected by people around you. E.g. when I had classmates depending on me to finish a part of a project, or a partner needing a good night sleep, I am much less likely to goof off into the wee hours of the night playing video games or such.

Makes me wish I could have recognized this way earlier and set up periodic "check-ins" with a group of friends. I've seen some people accomplish this via "life coaches." Some people have really involved parents. Explains why people with poorer backgrounds may do worse - less of this kind of involvement. Conversely I wonder if church/temple participation helps the other way.

People often conveniently claim they had "no choice" so they can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

> How much of a choice is it to be attracted to a given individual?

Don't confuse ones' choices with ones' desires. You have free will, you can indulge in the bad predilections, or not. Your choice.

Nobody said making the better choice is easy.

If I had my druthers, I'd eat nothing but donuts and ice cream all day. But I choose otherwise.

People often conveniently claim they had "no choice" so they can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

Choices or no choices, or free will, doesn't absolve someone of consequences, responsibility, or reality stemming from actions being undertaken.

The choice is not the in feeling, it's in the action.

At least when it comes to addiction, there can be no recovery unless there is a conscious choice to do something about it. Nobody can save these people unless they want to be saved.

It was 100% my choice to smoke 1.5 packs per day for 20 years. Just like it was my choice to quit. The first choice was easy, the second was not. You don't choose how you feel about things, but to a large extent you choose how you act.

Reducing that situation to a 'choice' is (from an analytical standpoint) just wrong, because the mechanics at work are a lot more complex.

In the end, you can say it is a choice, but what is a choice worth, if you don't know anything about preconditions (the knowledge, the impulse control, the education, the emotional point of reference, earlier experiences, etc). Not talking about how drugs affect your ability to choose and execute what you have chosen to do.

This is a sort of response that makes the conversation stink and as well has no optimal solution would come out.

  > I know that some people

I know that this writing will make no change in your bigoted perception but at-least it might to others. So, I'm writing it.

Addiction is NOT a choice, and it is a form of chemical imbalance that happens in our complex brain that makes the person get into addiction with any substance. It could be said like any other mental health illnesses. AND when the person who got addicted doesn't get enough support and the compassion (likely not from you) to the way where they can be able to stay away from their addiction, there is a possibility that such person could go worse.

> Addiction is NOT a choice

Drinking alcohol is a choice, so is sticking the needle in your arm.

> likely not from you

I support programs for treatment for addicts. Successful treatment, however, involves the addicts accepting responsibility. Nobody ever said recovery is easy. It isn't. Compassion is in order to help them recover.

But ultimately it's still up to them to make the choice.

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