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Comment by knorker | Hacker News Reader

I know it's not unheard of, but i have never in my career been offered extra money for working holidays.

I think it's the right thing to do, both for the worker and for the business (don't want grumpy workers on the holidays), but yeah if you throw a tantrum (?) for not getting a perk, then that sounds ungoogley.

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In virtually the entire developed world outside the US, holiday pay is a given. In some countries like Switzerland you literally need to apply to the government for permission to work Sundays.

I worked many jobs here in US and they all had holiday pay. So if I worked I would get paid 1.5x and if I didn't work I would still get paid as if I did.

Not supporting the idea that anyone is entitled to this, but saying it is not uncommon. I think it is regional within the US and maybe depends if you are hourly or salary based.

It depends on how deep the employer's pockets are and what supply and demand looks like for the type of labor. Fast food workers, small retail businesses, franchised hotels, all do not typically get holiday pay. Generally, the lower the income, the lower the chance of holiday pay.

That seems unfair.

If you get paid time-off, then that is paid at your normal rate of pay, and you don't have to work for it.

If you work one day during your PTO, then surely that work should be compensated at your daily rate of pay, in addition to your pay for time-off. Why should you work a day at half-pay?

So working during paid time-off should be compensated at double-time.

Time-and-a-half was customary in the UK for overtime, in the days of trades unions. The opportunity to work overtime was prized, and in fact sometimes workers would "go slow" during normal time, to ensure there was enough work left for overtime. Nobody worked normal hours that included public holidays, so those hours were compensated at double time. Christmas Day would sometimes command triple-time.

How about Japan?

Japan is a Karōshi country, it's in a completely different league. Several of my Japanese friends openly say they are not happy. The pressure of the society is enormous and it's practically impossible to resist. The traditional roles are still very strong and do cause problems for daughters (and probably to their fathers, although they are not allowed to admit that). Many things are twisted in an unhealthy way.

It’s not accurate to say “virtually the entire developed world outside the US” if Japan doesn’t qualify. Japan is the second largest developed nation by population and economic output. If someone means “white countries” they ought to say that.

Yes, I agree - it would be more correct to say “virtually the entire developed world outside the US and Japan.” I don't believe mixing skin color adds anything to the conversation except maybe the fact that a lot of labor abuse is happening in Asia in general. But Japan is very special because you don't need to work yourself to death in order to survive, but to fit in and don't fail the expectations of everybody around you.

The US and Japan are about half the developed world. I don’t think the virtually … except formula gives the correct impression given that fact.

OK, let;s put it differently. In terms of paid holidays per year, the USA is on a par with Argentina and two African countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

This is of course great for people like Bezos and Musk, but terrible for the society at large.

Japan is, as ever, complicated. On paper, there are strong labor protections, even salaried employees need to be paid hourly overtime and the concept of "oncall" is foreign to labor law: either you're fully on the clock or not. In reality, many of these regulations are cheerfully ignored and unpaid overtime is quite common, but there is wide variance between companies.

Early in my career, I worked in the USA for a top tier employer in a PhD level position (not a manager then).It was a full-time position, which I believe is exempt from over time. Worked a 12 hour day on thxgiving when something stupid happened (due to lack of management foresight). Wasn't just me but others too. Got a gift card in appreciation for 50 bucks or something. No overtime/extra pay. Time off in lieu was a joke as we were working like crazy and barely able to utilize owed PTO (which you could not cash out). This episode prompted me to put the feelers out to switch jobs, which I then did.

As a manager, I now push back hard on behalf of my team when I see unrealistic deadlines (especially around holiday times). This year, I had to fight a lot more than usual. The issue is success is required on a stupid timeline. Or else. I keep feeling I'm playing russian roulette with my job. But I reflect on my past experiences and think I'll be okay if I get kicked out. So .. cest la vie .. I'll do what I think is right.

In CA at least, not being able to cash out non-expired, accruable PTO is wage theft.

I don't know about you but I don't want my PTO to even be able to be cashed out. I'd rather have 30 days of PTO required by law and the company gets dinged for not letting me take it.

The US seems to have a culture of overwork where even being able to just get the PTO paid out feeds that's cycle. Work 80 hour weeks or you are shunned by the co-workers. Want to take some PTO? Nah, just get it paid out man!

We have to break that cycle.

I’d rather take the cash today and stash it for savings tomorrow. I’m highly skeptical SWE will pay well when I’m ready to retire in 29 years.

Which is why some companies pivoted to "unlimited time off" so you never accrue any official PTO and it's up to you to make sure you take any time off whatsoever. And just like open office floor plans, they portrayed this cost saving measure as a perk. Once you understand how this game works, you know to follow the money first.

Edit: Guess the truth hurts...

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/employee-re...

I think your example of how the employer behaves is a big part in how people react.

If your employer doesn't value you then I think it is absolutely the right thing to do what the person in the article did. Resist. Make other people resist. If possible in more subvertive ways instead of just getting fired loudly.

If my employer values me then they don't even have to ask. I'll gladly help the company out where needed. If I know that I actually can take time and a half off in lieu of working on a holiday that's totally OK. These employers do exist. Find them and work for them and make them great.

I have never worked in the US, if that helps at all.

But i have worked in multiple other countries.

Like I said they definitely should, but no this is absolutely not another example of everyone but the US doing the right thing.

So no, you are wrong. I've never worked in Switzerland, so you may be right about that. But we both know Switzerland is not representative.

Yeah, in most parts of the world national holidays are holidays because you don't have to work without worrying you won't be paid for that day. If you have a Bezos-like mindset, it may seems stupid and inefficient, but this is short-sighted. Having holidays where - irrespective of other PTO, which is very scarce in the USA - you can reunite with your family or just be alone if you prefer, spend time doing what you love etc, gives you the reason to go back to work. Otherwise, if you just work for the sake of working, what's the point? You just get older and die. Maybe if you're one of the lucky ones and have a job that gives you 100% satisfaction and inspiration all of the time, it might not matter that much, but most people don't have jobs like that, and even if it seems so, it may change with time. You Americans need to stand up and fight for your rights.

I entirely agree with everything except...

> You Americans

I'm not American, and none of the countries i have worked in are the US.

I have only worked in socialist Europe.

Now what?

Like I said I think it's silly to not pay more during holidays.

Never having worked in the US of course "thanksgiving" specifically has never been a thing.

Every union job I've had holiday pay, and every white collar job has paid time off for holidays.

In my life the only jobs that skipped holiday pay were hypercapitalist organizations that didn't have a unionized workforce and didn't compensate people for their time humanely.

Good for you. Good for the companies you worked for.

None of mine have. And like i replied to elsewhere no, none of my jobs have been in the US.

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