Comment by arcticbull | Hacker News Reader

Comment by arcticbull | Hacker News Reader

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> Is this true? I thought there was a complex system of clearing houses, record updates, etc. a lot of which is done manually? Am I wrong?

Blockchain is a database. Records at a bank are a database. There's no reason you can't just execute a SQL transaction to deduct from one and increment the other haha. That's not the slow part.

That's why every one of the systems I mentioned supports real-time 24/7 transfers: SEPA, FPS, NPP, Interac, RTP, FedNow, ISO20022. Not a blockchain in sight. Amazing right?

> It’s possible to build a lot of stuff to handle things like KYC in a way that’s better because of crypto tech.

It does not address KYC at all. KYC is built on top at the CEX level. If you have some concrete non-speculative way you think this is true, please share.

> I guess we’ll see how it shakes out, but for better or worse I’m betting against you.

I seriously doubt you're betting against me haha.

[edit] Any the reason settlement hasnt been addressed sooner is because thanks to the magic optimization of centralization and trust, you can just borrow the capital until settlement happens. I mean think about it, equity settlement is T+2 but yet somehow HFTs exist?

Remember the golden rule of blockchain: except in the case of regulatory arbitrage, grift and crime, if you think a blockchain is a better solution to a problem than any classical solution - you either don't know enough about crypto or you don't know enough about the problem.

I really try to resist being drawn into flame bait.

> "Remember the golden rule of blockchain: except in the case of regulatory arbitrage, grift and crime, if you think a blockchain is a better solution to a problem than any classical solution - you either don't know enough about crypto or you don't know enough about the problem."

There's a real possibility here that you're way overconfident and wrong and this overconfidence will blind you from a lot of interesting stuff that's going on.

> "There's no reason you can't just execute a SQL transaction to deduct from one and increment the other haha. That's not the slow part."

Yeah - that's because that's ignoring the entire context of everything else required around that. The centralized systems, the manual trust, the integration problems between organizations. The sql update is not the issue.

It seems clear from your tone that you're not really curious about this so I'll just leave it here.

> "Not a blockchain in sight. Amazing right?"

Good for you - let's check back in 10yr.

> "I seriously doubt you're betting against me haha."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> There's a real possibility here that you're way overconfident and wrong and this overconfidence will blind you from a lot of interesting stuff that's going on.

I'm always open to that possibility, and I spend a lot of time learning about blockchain technology. And I've spent the last 10 years working in fintech. Of the commenters here, I probably have more context than most on both.

> Yeah - that's because that's ignoring the entire context of everything else required around that. The centralized systems, the manual trust, the integration problems between organizations. The sql update is not the issue.

Correct, centralization and trust represent massive efficiencies.

Banks trust each other or can trust a central intermediary which is again why NPP, RTP, FedNow, SEPA, FPA all work instantly, basically free, without blockchain. Whereas moving USDC-ETH between two accounts costs $25.

> Good for you - let's check back in 10yr.

It's been 14 years and yet we have nothing to show for it except a whole pile of used up Kazakh and Xinjiang coal - and some really ugly twitter avatars. But yes, I'll wait, I'm sure OP will deliver by 2031.

The bitcoin whitepaper came out in 2009, Ethereum was 2015, a lot of the interesting stuff has been within the last two years.

You may be right in the end, but people with exposure to the industry at risk of disruption are often bad at recognizing it. See Ballmer at Microsoft mocking the iPhone, Blockbuster failing to adapt to Netflix, Borders failing to adapt to Kindle/Amazon etc.

That knowledge can provide context for accuracy, but it can also mislead or bias you against something that's changing rapidly.

> "Correct, centralization and trust represent massive efficiencies."

At a real cost. The web comparison would be decentralized underlying protocols vs. the centralized applications on top of them. "Web3" may allow a way to fix the things that lead to centralization at the application layer with UX that actually works. This is distinct from cryptocurrency, but there's some overlap. ETH cost should get reduced by ETH2 and sharding, the cost is representative of current transaction demand.

I'm not a crypto-anarchist, I think both systems will have complementary purposes. Programmable money is something new, knee-jerk dismissals of "it's all crime" are dumb imo.

> You may be right in the end, but people with exposure to the industry at risk of disruption are often bad at recognizing it. See Ballmer at Microsoft mocking the iPhone, Blockbuster failing to adapt to Netflix, Borders failing to adapt to Kindle/Amazon etc.

That's a lovely narrative except I work in fintechs exposed to crypto.

> ... That knowledge can provide context for accuracy, but it can also mislead or bias you against something that's changing rapidly.

And as I said I spend a lot of time researching so that I can have informed discussions.

> At a real cost. The web comparison would be decentralized underlying protocols vs. the centralized applications on top of them. "Web3" may allow a way to fix the things that lead to centralization at the application layer with UX that actually works.

The real cost of PoW blockchain is the electricity consumption and e-waste production of a country, and the cost of all blockchains is a system absolutely rife with corruption and scams.

You're just describing APIs, which we've had forever.

>There's a real possibility here that you're way overconfident and wrong and this overconfidence will blind you from a lot of interesting stuff that's going on.

I'm tempted to start keeping track of how many hundreds of negative comments about crypto HN generates each day, every day. It doesn't really come across as confidence to me.

HN is quite a bit softer on average on crypto than the broader audience. There's a small but confidently vocal minority of us keeping the light on for sanity.

You find me one thing, just one thing, that crypto is better at than a traditional solution and I'll be all over it. 14 years and counting. 0 killer apps.

People have mentioned things to you [0], you ignore them and repeat this phrase.

So despite what you say, you will not be “all over it”. You have no interest in changing your mind or in engaging in genuine discussion.

You won’t even update “14yrs” which is just a clear factual error.

[0]: getting wealth out of a corrupt country for one

> getting wealth out of a corrupt country for one

Do you have a concrete example that wouldn't (a) be suitably handled by Wise, Xoom or a wire transfer and (b) isn't out of a sanctioned country and (b) isn't out of a country where the transfer fee would be prohibitive? If so, could you quantify?

Is it even good for this? You have to buy the coins from someone else, meaning if you did it domestically you're still net the same level of welfare. If you traded them internationally, you can just buy USD.

This is yet another hand-wavey claim, and what I asked for was something concrete, tangible, measurable.

> You won’t even update “14yrs” which is just a clear factual error.

2008 to 2022. Just rounding by a couple months.

> So despite what you say, you will not be “all over it”. You have no interest in changing your mind or in engaging in genuine discussion.

I have no interest in slapping crypto on the back when it hasn't done anything but crime, grift and regulatory arbitrage. Bitcoin is the official currency of the alt-right and yes, it's now older than your average high schooler. [1] Just one, concrete application is all I ask.

[1] https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/9/30/22703200/bitcoin-cryp...

Ukraine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/06/13/why-b...

Stored wealth, memorized seed words and regenerated on the other side.

There was also an interview with someone relying on BTC in Venezuela too because their currency is worse.

You’re rounding by multiple years, especially if you consider ETH.

Also: https://www.matthuang.com/bitcoin_for_the_open_minded_skepti...

> Stored wealth, memorized seed words and regenerated on the other side.

Of course its possible for one or two people to benefit but net net the Ukranians either (a) traded amongst themselves in which case the net welfare stayed the exact same or (b) they traded with people abroad in which case they could have chosen literally any asset on earth, many of which outperformed Bitcoin and other cryptos.

> There was also an interview with someone relying on BTC in Venezuela too because their currency is worse.

An anecdote is not a substitute for data, and Venezuela decided to dollarize, not bitcoinize. 66% of transactions in Venezuela are USD denominated now due to a groundswell of popular support. [1] They didn't bitcoinize. Because the dollar is better.

> You’re rounding by multiple years, especially if you consider ETH.

I'm rounding by a few months. That there are recent developments doesn't roll forward the clock on launch day. The iPhone launched at the same time as Bitcoin. That's what a killer product looks like.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-13/venezuela...

It’s pointless to continue - you asked for “just one thing” then come up with reasons why the use case I gave doesn’t count. It wasn’t about trading, it was about being able to store value without needing trust in a central authority.

It’s hard to get dollars in Venezuela which is why this guy was relying on BTC. I never claimed BTC was superior to the dollar.

The iPhone is a product, Bitcoin (really blockchain and programmable money more broadly) is more akin to the web in 1996. It’s a protocol for money.

You can believe what you want, the nice thing about economic bets is it doesn’t matter.

You gave me a bad example haha. One Venezuela persons poor substitute for the USD they wish they could have is hardly a killer app. If you could come up with a good one you’d be wealthier than bezos.

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