Comment by rmk | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rmk | Hacker News Reader

I am curious: if you collect cans for a living, do you qualify for government assistance? Is it possible that Jessica Yauri receives aid earmarked for children so they can get proper nutrition, via her parents? She does not mention if she qualifies for lunch assistance. Also, I am assuming that she goes to a public school where she doesn't have to pay to attend. It is also not clear if she receives further aid in support of her going to college.

There is a mention of $400 towards high school fees causing some anxiety among her parents, but beyond that, not too many concrete details.

The focus of the article is on the writer's experience with the shame she experiences because of her parents' job, so perhaps it's not the right place for this information, but the composite picture would be a much more faithful representation of the overall experience of Jessica's.

This is also a point where America needs to introspect, as a nation: sure, we import less-fortunate immigrants, in large part because they are much more willing to do dirty jobs such as gathering cans, but it's also true that it all comes out in the wash: society as a whole is responsible for bearing the costs of keeping these people fed, clothed, schooled, and taken care of in medical emergencies. If you added up the costs, is the labor "cheap" anymore, or does it make more sense to discourage the immigration of what is likely to be a 2-3 generation underclass, and incentivise people already here to step in?

I am a little bit annoyed with the direction of your argument. To counter argue, it is obvious in this case that the value that you get from this “underclass” is more that the cheap labour, it’s also an educated young person with passion and depth of experiences that you would struggle to get from “people already here” alone. What has been coming out “in the wash” for the duration of your history, I assume you comment from US perspective, is a prosperous country, so it seems you have been getting a great deal.

In what specific way is an imported poor person better than a local poor person? There are plenty of generationally poor people in America already, so how does America benefit vs. by helping the poor that are already here to a higher extent. After all, citizenship or permanent residency means that you have a higher claim on your fellow-citizens' taxes that are set aside for the purpose of human development.

Second, the "educated young person" was educated courtesy of the United States, not her country of origin. I agree with you somewhat that immigrants have a higher drive to succeed. But, how do poorer uneducated, possibly illegal immigrants fare in this regard vs. self-supporting well-educated immigrants who are better able to integrate easily into the mainstream?

I believe immigration is essential to keep growth going, and to keep various social support systems such as Medicare and Social Security solvent in the current state. However, there is the subtle question of whether that is accomplished by having control and a say over what type of immigration it is that we want, or by relinquishing any semblance of control in the matter. Any democratic society with a right to self-determination should be able to have a frank discussion and the ability to decide for themselves how they proceed on this.

Economics does not work with specific comparisons for me, I.e. not in comparisons between this and that person. In your theoretical comparison, both are able to contribute given the proper opportunities, as a country you have the resources to give them both opportunities. The blocker as far as I can tell from an outsider’s perspective is that the society is conditioned against supporting each other.

I am myself a highly skilled immigrant (different country). It is convenient to be able to pick and choose, but this can end up in a kind of immigrant monoculture. I know of less skilled at the time of entry immigrants that have achieved more than me, by sheer passion and entrepreneurial spirit. Education is a good indicator but not the end all. Finally, this selection will work for first generation, what you get from the following generations is correlated perhaps, but not defined, and statistically as per my previous answer, the US got pretty good outcomes with minimal controls at the point of entry and with a pure aspirational system of values that self-selected success (big discussion now that we move on this and it’s relationship with generational poverty).

I don't think you are curious, rather you're making a not so subtly veiled point against immigration which is wholly inappropriate in the context of this thread.

I think it is a 100% valid statement.

Are the authors parents, or is the author even valid to reside in the USA permanently?

And before anyone cries "racist", my background is 100% similar to the author in question. It's a shame that in the USA we have people who never really learned the Spanish language or culture and go on with "latinx" which is mocked even on twitter, to people who protect people that may have entered the United States illegally.

Migrating for work or school are very valid routes, but as the author stated she was "12" when she started collecting cans with her parents, it paints a picture that she migrated to the United States sometime during middle school. With per parents not having a support network in place, being illiterate in English, it seems highly unlikely they migrated here for work or university. Same for the author being 12 as well, highly unlikely that she migrated to the United States and sponsored her parents.

Nothing veiled about it, very legitimate questions. Many other families come in the country legally and are able to sponser themselves, that is one of the main focal points of immigration services. Are the people who are changing their nationality, able to survive, prosper and adapt to a new environment? Alongside liability, why should the United States have to socially assist someone that is new or even potentially an illegal alien over a "real" USA Citizen?

It is 100% appropriate, and matches the context of the story of the author - or more specifically why can't the authors parents support their child?

Long-winded way of saying you think America should not allow poor people to immigrate because they might cost society too much, and poor Spanish speaking immigrants are probably illegal anyway.

It's valid. Refugees are refugees and are granted legal status. Illegitimate Spanish speaking aliens encourage human trafficking through unsafe conditions, Turbo, Colombia, Darien Gap, Cayotes in general and sponser cartels, - etc, worker extortion, unsafe work places (e.g. company hires illegal aliens, pays under minimum wage, no safety regards and if there's any talk out of line - it's just a call to ICE/DHS and the problem is solved and other problems are brushed under the rug, illiteracy, and future broken families because when they are caught, they will uproot or dampen their families in the USA financially and criminally.

Legal immigration is fine, there are support networks in place to grant a base wage/support, language support in Spanish and English Classes/Adult ESL classes/ Adult GED classes because they are a citizen and as an American USA Citizen they are entitled to that.

Your reply is baitclicky poverty porn that sounds bad, so it must be bad (and ignore every other issue because it feels bad) - because when you look at Indian Immigration, Chinese Immigration - it is 100% a different issue. Less of all the above issues.

I wasn’t aware on the bottom of the Statue of Liberty it said “Give me your wealthy, fur-clad masses yearning to make a buck”

The Statue of Liberty does not dictate complex public policy. America provides more (no strings-attached) aid to poor countries than any other country, and it also takes in more immigrants than perhaps the rest of the world combined (almost every country in the world has a net positive emigration rate to the USA).

Well they ought to have put the public charge laws on there too, no doubt.

"baitclicky poverty porn that sounds bad"

I'm not sure you know what either "baitclick" or poverty porn are, and I'm very sure that you are misinformed about immigration in the United States, no matter how close to it you feel. Regardless, you don't get to dismiss facts simply because they make you feel bad.

There are not in fact significant support networks for legal immigrants, even refugees. There are informal community supports and nonprofits, but you have to live in the right place (and as a refugee, you don't get to choose).

More importantly, are you even aware that poor Spanish speaking people immigrate here legally without being refugees? They win greencards in the lottery every year or they get sponsored by family (that old bogeyman of chain migration!). (The author lives near her grandparents, perhaps that's how they arrived!)

That is not true, by standard if you are a legal immigrant, you are entitled to social services and get the help you need. This can be seen most recently by the Afghanistan refugees resettling in the USA.

Guaranteed food, guaranteed shelter, guaranteed medicare, guaranteed access to education. Expedited identity services.

In any state, or province, you can look it up and see what services are available to legal immigrants.

The issue I stated above, and in other replies is that many Central and South Americans are here illegally, and that is why they fall into these types of traps and are continually stuck. There are more ways to access USA legally and green card is one of them. The most common one that I did not say was marriage and then the spouse that immigrated can sponsor their family.

While you write quite happy and positive, I urge you to not drink this sort of kool-aid.

While immigration to the USA is not perfect, there are services that help legal and in many cities/states they even ASSIST illegal aliens by allowing them to have identity cards, not enforcing laws, dropping cases, adding several languages to their social services, offering interpreter services, having guaranteed defense help for lawsuits (tenant rights) and the right to an attorney (public defender.)

I also suggest you review this, many immigrants and Americans don't.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/M-...

Well, one of the problems is the pronounced tilt toward family migration, which occurs at the expense of highly skilled migrants. There are no political points to be won by encouraging legal, high-skilled immigrants, so they are treated like dirt while illegal immigrants' concerns (e.g., dreamers) rise to the top of the pile.

Another problem is jus solis, which enables illegal immigrants to lay claim to public funds indirectly via US-citizen children. The large number of illegal immigrants makes this a problem. If their numbers were better controlled by prompt enforcement of existing immigration law, then most people would simply not object to providing a high level of assistance to a small(er) number of illegal immigrants. However, the large number of illegal immigrants coupled with a low-medium level of assistance creates an underclass that will remain on the lower rungs for generations.

The last problem is the "refugee" problem. Because family and skilled migration are the only other legal paths available, many people abuse the refugee provisions by posing as victims of political violence, domestic violence etc., in order to gain entry. This has blown up into a huge crisis at the US-Mexico border.

A significant number of hispanic immigrants and citizens are in one of these problematic categories, and the sheer scale of the problem is the actual issue.

And you can't pretend to be OK with poor people immigrating legally when you also have this opinion:

"why should the United States have to socially assist someone that is new"

A number of fair questions, I can only answer from personal experience.

My dad being a bus driver+conference phone tech and my mom an office admin we qualified for lunch and other aids as long as I was in school.

Many things were subsidized, but there were also things that weren't. It was hard to know when unless you always asked.

For smaller items sometimes it wasn't worth the embarrassment of always walking up to your teacher or school admin to ask if there was a discount for me. They knew who I was and what I was asking for. Super nice about it, but it doesn't make it feel any less worse. I also had to sneak away from friends. I also didn't want them around while I asked.

But you're right at a $400 required fee, usually there's a form of aid/discount.

I'll give the writer a benefit of doubt. Maybe there wasn't aid available? Maybe there was and it simply wasn't enough. $400 => $100 can still be very stressful.

Regardless, I thank my parents and grandparents, because being one of the lucky ones - I never went hungry.

It is always embarrassing, even for a young child, to be asking for what he feels to be handouts. But, in your personal experience, was there enough assistance, and did it make a meaningful difference at the right time in your life? Was being better-informed about assistance the biggest challenge by far?

> was there enough assistance,

Having read other stories of other children, yes I would say it was. As the pandemic really got going, shutting down schools was removing some kids only assured meals.

> and did it make a meaningful difference at the right time in your life?

mmmmm for me personally I want to say yes, but can't definitively say so because it wasn't profound enough for me to say "Ah yes my life changed" because of this. I can't tell what my life would have been like if my parents made more money during that same time period.

> Was being better-informed about assistance the biggest challenge by far?

As the parent, probably, I haven't asked. As the child, no, the hardest challenge was asking for it and being told by my parents to go ask. I'd bring home a paper that says you need $50 for this field trip, parents would send me to the office to ask. I'd fight/beg not to. Sometimes I actually got my way, most of time I didn't.

Today, I know/can-imagine what kind of stress that particular fight puts on parents and I thank them so much for raising me.

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