I use Firefox as my daily driver primarily for privacy concerns and control, and secondarily to avoid monolithic browser stacks controlled by Google. Firefox isn’t perfect, but I enjoy the experience and have no issue browsing the web with it.
I use Firefox as my daily driver primarily for privacy concerns and control, and secondarily to avoid monolithic browser stacks controlled by Google. Firefox isn’t perfect, but I enjoy the experience and have no issue browsing the web with it.
Chromes dominance is not going to be changed outside of government action.
This is because business tactics rather than technical or product ones are the reason for their domination.
While I love technologies, it's so important to focus on the things outside of the tech itself at times.
Building out a high quality subset is not viable, the second your browser stops working with Amazon or Ebay or whatever else your browser is finished.
To compete or gain a market doesn't mean you need to have all the features. Doing things differently can and does work. The more I read books like Competing Against Luck and The Design Of Everyday Things the more I'm able to see it and even work on projects that do that.
> the second your browser stops working with Amazon or Ebay or whatever else your browser is finished
This is why standards are so important. Why it's important to have Firefox and Safari in the marketplace. Apple using Safari on iOS and iOS large market helps keep the standards ecosystem in check with Chromes dominance.
The lack of modern tech communications standards is causing problems for consumers. While I don't always like the HTML, CSS, and JS specs... the fact that we have specs and multiple implementations is a benefit to people who want to try and compete.
Well not with that attitude.
1. We the people are completely unable to use the power of market forces to come up with an alternative and supplant the established market leader
2. The government will regulate this in a way that is better than the alternative
3. That lobbying forces and the general corruption that is widespread in D.C. won't impact that in any negative way.
4. That big tech companies aren't experts in skirting regulations or that Google doesn't already have a plan B if something happened to one of their moats.
Why did Google's refusal squash a brand new browser? Why was it even a factor? Did it have to be? Is there an alternative approach one could take to not need google's involvement to include a Widevine module in their said brand-new browser?
My point was that DRM (EME) support is becoming an expectation, and you are outright locked out from certain EME schemes like Widevine unless you're a "blessed" browser (which you can't be, yet - by definition, you're too small to enter any meaningful communication with a large player, as the browser I mentioned found out).
> Why did Google's refusal squash a brand new browser? Why was it even a factor? Did it have to be?
Said browser (Metastream [0]) was meant to build a different experience for watching video streams together, potentially including DRM-ed sources. Widevine allegedly has a 70% market share, so the refusal really was a big deal and a deal-breaker for the intended vision of the browser.
> Is there an alternative approach one could take to not need google's involvement to include a Widevine module in their said brand-new browser?
What do you propose, beyond technical workarounds that can cease working at any time? I imagine that there may be a risk of invoking the DMCA or lawsuits, whether wrongful or not (might makes right after all, and Google has the deeper pockets here)
The right way to do this is to engage into a DRM licensing process, which is a fundamentally business-based one. And when you're small and dealing with a stubborn large business, there's no right to appeal their decision.
Besides that point, you have to be keen to distinguish between a situation where there is just a clear market winner versus a company attempting to monopolize, e.g. do people just prefer to use Chrome at the end of the day? Most internet users today are aware of Microsoft's browser. Almost all millennials and under are additionally aware of Firefox. The definition of monopoly isn't just "people choose to use this product in lieu of others" but something closer to "people are forced to use this product in lieu of others" or "people have no other choice than to use this product"
This killed the original non-chromium Edge. Not sure if it fits a monopoly definition but it is definitely not good behaviour.
We've had "Big Tech" and monopolizing actions amongst them for a while now.
Firefox might have become irrelevant in terms of market share, but it's far from being a "corpse", if you meant anything by that outside of the "Weekend at Bernie's" analogy. It works quite well, its extensions are far less likely to get totally nerfed for the purpose of showing ads, and it even still develops features before Chrome does.
It's definitely being dangled out there for the sake of excusing Google, but it also seems like someone's seriously holding it back. The Servo debacle was pretty inexcusable. Servo of course still exists under the Linux Foundation, but we'll be lucky if we ever see it mean anything to Firefox or become anything other than a curiosity.
Is it the dominance of 'Chrome' or 'Chromium'. I see 'Chrome' as Google's official product, 'Chromium' though seems to have become a boilerplate in recent years for kickstarting your own browser, and I don't know how I feel about this.
On the one hand Google is already a monopoly in the browser space, because we have gone from "Browser Wars" to "Engine Wars" where 3 distinct browsers (Edge, Chrome and Brave) all running the same tech from Google.
On the other hand I see this as a major service Google has done to help everyone in web development. In a way this engine monopoly has made things much easier, I no longer care if you're running Chrome, Edge, Brave or some other V8 based browser, I know I will see a consistent experience across those browsers. And while part of me is fearful or this shift, another part of me is like "so what". So what if Chromium is a dominant browser "core", it's OSS and though Google has major influence, it's still OSS.
Sincerely, a happy Brave user.
Heard this once already when the song was about IE6.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_C....
What changed? Firefox was released, Safari was released, and quite a bit later, Google Chrome was released, but it would still be a while before IE6 would lose its dominance even once IE7 was released.
1. IE6/7 were just egregiously bad experiences for both users and developers, with Microsoft being almost entirely disinterested to the point of disbanding their browser team. Holding the web back was clearly part of their strategy.
2. Chrome, on the other hand, is well-maintained and rather good. Unlike Microsoft in the 2000s, the web is a core pillar of Google's business. Any challenger to the throne will have to overtake a moving target powered by a world-class engineering powerhouse, rather than a static dinosaur like IE6/IE7.
3. The barrier to entry in the browser market today is roughly an order of magnitude greater than it was back then. Browsers today are far more complex; they're more like operating systems.
As far as the free market is concerned, nobody is seriously challenging Chrome in this area. Ever. Unless/until Google loses interest and stops competing.
Google also originally piggy backed on WebKit to build their browser. The JavaScript runtime was homegrown, but Google worked within WebKit before forking out of there. My guess is when Google Chrome is eventually overtaken, it will be by another Chromium-based browser under similar circumstances.
The web also isn’t just desktop browsers anymore. It’s much harder to make the case that Google Chrome is the only major browser of concern with MobileSafari running around, and per Apple’s policies, WebKit the only useful browser engine on iOS and iPadOS.
The web also isn’t just desktop browsers anymore. It’s much
harder to make the case that Google Chrome is the only major
browser of concern with MobileSafari running around, and per
Apple’s policies, WebKit the only useful browser engine on iOS
and iPadOS.
Yeah and, perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for strategy/foresight, but it feels like this all plays precisely into Google's hands.There is just enough competition, and Google's web apps are just functional enough on Webkit/Firefox, for Google to sail clear of accusations of monopoly.
Again, I don’t even particularly like Google Chrome, but do you know the only reason I keep a Chromium-based browser installed at all is? Government websites. Not Chrome though, currently it’s Brave with all the crypto stuff turned off. I don’t even need one for anything else. To the extent that Google Chrome is entrenched, it’s the same entities whose powers you mean to bring to bear on them helping them stay entrenched.
I mentioned this in another comment, but Google Chrome originally piggybacked on WebKit, homegrown JS runtime aside, before forking out of there. I think there’s a decent chance that the same could happen to Google via another Chromium-based browser. Just because it’s not immediately apparent how Chrome will lose its dominance today doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen. Nor does that mean it should. People actually like Chrome. I used to like Chrome, and it’s easy to see how people with a different set of priorities than mine still do.
The old song was about IE6, and today’s song is about Google Chrome. The lyrics might be different but it’s still the same old song.
My problem with Chrome dominance is that it's both a dominance of a single company (since Chrome is by far the dominant "fork" of Chromium, and owned by an advertising corporation), and a dominance of a single browser engine. The latter is IMO a really big threat, as it leads to browser engine monoculture. Monoculture leads to a single point of failure, and in this case, a loss of knowledge about how to build a browser engine that's "the websites that are actually out there"-compliant. Much more relies on the web now, so it's paramount that we have a useful alternative browser engine implementation.
Duplicating an app runtime feature for feature and bug for bug is difficult in a capital intensive sort of way. Even companies that can afford the expenditure, primarily Microsoft, decided to get out of that game because that level of expenditure comes with its own opportunity costs even at their level.
And there are alternatives: WebKit and Mozilla, one of those is the exclusive web renderer for iPhones and iPads which is not an insignificant amount of hardware in the world.
Google puts the work in. It’s really just that, and it’s their private prerogative to put that work in if they so choose, where others choose not to. The diversity of rendering engines isn’t great compared to say 15 years ago, but it’s not so bad that it’s a total monoculture in the way IE6 was. Actually thinking about it, more people are using more and different browser rendering engines than back then because Chromium-based browsers don’t have the total dominance that IE6 did, and there’s a lot more people on the web than there used to be. We had diversity, but we’re talking iCab, pre-WebKit OmniWeb, Opera on Presto, and yeah, Trident’s not really around anymore, but it was there, and so was Gecko and WebKit.
At least you don’t need a browser that supports ActiveX controls for regular websites anymore.
Good for you, but the problem is what many other people don't use FF in any way, even if it worked well for their purposes.
> "Instead of forking Chromium or anything else, we're building our desktop app around the OS-provided rendering engines (like on mobile), allowing us to strip away a lot of the unnecessary cruft and clutter that's accumulated over the years in major browsers," explains Weinberg.
The same engine (WebKit) is available on all Apple platforms. One can also build a desktop browser on top of WebKit like DuckDuckGo suggests it may do on macOS. This approach has a tremendous advantage for solid platform integration and allows them to focus on building a good user experience (and, in this case, secure* good user experience).
It basically only lets them do a bit more than skinning it. No deep plugin architectures like you see with Android Firefox, allowing real ad blockers.
It is also possible to extend the content blocking feature, so it also works in Safari itself through a regular web plugin or a content blocker extension. DuckDuckGo offers the "DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials" plugin for iOS and macOS, blocking all kinds of trackers.
How they will support Linux is a mystery.
For instance, AWS EC2 Global View insists I switch away from Firefox, that's just one example, but there are more.
Anyone know why? I've always viewed Firefox as the de-facto standard, why the recent breakage? Why is it deemed acceptable, by AWS of all orgs?
Firefox 95.0.2 64-bit fwiw.
I wonder Mozilla is unable to demonstrably provide support in this area?
I'd switch to Firefox in an instant if they would just make the multi-profile functionality a first class citizen instead of hiding it behind about:profiles.
It's a feature in Chrome that is hugely essential to my daily workflow and the current equivalent in Firefox has too many friction points to sway me at the moment.
Another one byte the drust quick song ala winamp on first launch.
- Dark Night Mode
- FireShot
- Force Background Tab
- Google Docs Offline
- Google Mail Checker
- Hacker News Enhancement Suite
- Image Downloader
- Instapaper
- LastPass
- Linkclump
- Popout for Youtube
- Privacy Badger
- Read Aloud
- Reader Mode
- Reddit Check
- Reddit Enhancement Suite
- ReviewMeta
- Send from Gmail
- Tampermonkey
- The Camelizer
- uBlock OriginMy wife says what does it have to do with the internet. I told her Mozilla has conflicting priorities.
WRT the features: Firefox needs market share above all. I'm actually terrified by a future where companies can't be bothered to put even a minimal effort to make a website/service run acceptably on Firefox. Try to use Slack on it, and you'll see what I mean.
This isn't the future unfortunately. This is the present.
Really feels dev culture has regressed since the early chrome/safari days where working in multiple browsers was seen as priority.
That said I'm not sure what is the current state of Gecko and how it could be used easily in new project. I'm not even sure that's a goal Mozilla is pushing.
Firefox has been consistently getting worse in dumb ways, and the mozilla foundation seems to be interested in anything and everything but delivering a superior web browser.
Where's the source for the MS version of it?
> I believe multiple parties and players help us build a more open and standards based web.
How is choosing Firefox over Chromium going to help in that regard? And why do you think Chromium is a monolithic browser stack by Google? How is it monolithic? I see plenty of "Chromium parts" forked and used in different environments on their own all the time. Blink, V8 or mixed combinations like CEF ... Also what makes you think it's "controlled by Google"? You say you want more open standards, but funnily enough Mozilla is one of those ignoring most new widely adopted and open standards because of ... well, some developer simply doesn't want Firefox to support it. See the "Web Serial API" for example.
Chromium is absolutely dominant in that space, since basically all major browsers except Safari and FF are based on it. Creating your own stack is hardly an option and Safari isn't forkable, so if you don't want to support the near-monopoly of the Chrome browser stack Firefox is the only option.
Now, I do agree that FF made some very questionable decisions recently, but so did Chrome (see Manifest v3) and the way it's going right now, we'll have yet another Internet Exporer-like scenario on our hands soon.