The Last Soviet Generation | Hacker News Reader

The Last Soviet Generation

aljazeera.com

127 pointsdredmorbius192 comments

I was not a big fan of Soviet regime and I‘m still fully agree that the collapse of the Soviet Union was for the good and do not wish it restored in any form.

But being born in 1970 in Tselinogtad, middle-sized city in Soviet Kazakhstan, I cannot say that my life in USSR was any kind of bleak or depressing. Yes, there were much less variety of food in stores and clothes were not very fashy, but this is not what makes you happy, at least they meant almost nothing to me.

I always wanted travel the world and very early understood that this is complicated in the country where I was living. So at age of 9 I started to prepare myself for a career of a diplomat - my favorite book was “Countries of the World” and I joined “The Club of Inernational Friendship” at the Palace of Pioneers. Gradually I became a “president” of this club and in 1982 went to Artek, famous international pioneer camp in Crimea. Later on, still at school, in 1986, I visited Bratislava to participate the programming Olympiad for children. I went from my native Tselinograd to Novosibirsk Akademgorodok in 1985 to study at physics-mathematics boarding school. Akademgorodok at that time was kind of place from a sci-fi book, where scientists lived and worked. There were 27 research institutes and a university set in a Siberian forest. It was a fantastic experience to study there. What happened to Akademgorodok after dissolution of the USSR is another (sad) story.

So, as I said in the beginning, I don’t want to return to the USSR, but I don’t think we lived miserable lives there.

This is not exactly the common experience of a child in USSR. 99.99% never being to Artek and 99.999% never visited a foreign country. The STEM education was pretty good though.

Just wondering. But I hardly see any Americans in foreign countries. Seems they all have to work all the time. But in the many countries I travel through I generally see only Europeans , Asians and occasionally Australians. Hardly ever an American citizen.

Americans take 93.0 Million international outbound trips each year

Source? Is this the number of passengers, aircraft movements, or something else? Also is it for American citizens or just people flying from US to non-US?

Also factor in that many people who do fly, fly multiple times a year.

If that 93m is individual passengers then you should discount it quite a bit to accommodate frequent fliers and overseas tourists returning home.

A google search snippet :) thats number of trips taken by US citizens Number of US citizens who traveled is 44 mil so about half of the number of trips.

The gp observation is anecdotal, right?

In 2019 Germans made more international tourism trips than americans, despite having only a quarter of the population.

But the observations depend on where you travel and see other travellers, right? Go to nw mexico and I expect most tourists are from the us? Whereas mallorca is practically the southernmost german bundesland? And cyprus presents plenty of russians?

And comparing geography: Germany is geographically much smaller than the US, and in a place like Liechtenstein it is easy to make an international trip just to go shopping, even if you take the bike.

all very valid points I think the discussion was in the context of USSR

Which is more than the population of Germany. These numbers must include Schegen movement otherwise the German are quite a touristy people. But including Schengen movements is like including inter-USA travel for Americans. I bet the US will rank much higher if we were to do that.

I wonder how this statistic would look if you'd stop counting Majorca and such as "international tourism" :)

In USSR foreign travel was severely restricted even to soviet block countries.

what was the rationale?

Not enough KGB officers to tail them.

There was multitude of reasons but the main ones were what you needed to have a good standing in the society[0] and the need to control every aspect of that society. People who would see a (even a little) better living could start asking questions. One could say that was a result of fear.

[0] the article provides one such example:

> Because of Dmitry’s active involvement in the communist youth groups, when he was 15, his school sent him to the Pioneer summer camp in Nordhausen near Erfurt in East Germany.

People were not supposed to see how people actually live in the "west" since quality of life was much higher even in other soviet block countries.

Not only to the bloc countries, but even travel entirely within Russia was also restricted and bureaucratically regulated, requiring internal passports and visas for travel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_system_in_the_Soviet_...

We see a lot of american visitors in europe (basically all over the place). In a normal year.

Probably luck or something about how you went that made you not interact with Americans. I met lots of Americans all over the world.

Also: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/ST.INT.DPRT/rank...

The European numbers are probably a bit inflated due to Schengen and their closeness.

Most of USA citizens live pretty close to either Canada or Mexico.

Canada isn't much a vacation destination. Canadians travel South. Mexico is not very attractive to Americans right now due to crime.

There is way less crime in Cabo than in most of the US.

Where? I mostly meet European tourists, as well, but that's probably because I only travel within Europe, which is where I live, so it's very easy to reach.

Americans all go to the same places (they tend to be very trendy / checklist oriented and go for small amounts of time), it’s really obvious as a French person in America, all my American colleagues go to places I never visit in France and vice versa.

At least Berlin is chock-full with US peeps.

I've been born in USSR, never been to Artek and visited a foreign country many years after USSR collapsed, and I was happy in my country. 'Democratic' Russia of 90's and half of 00'' was much, much worse in every possible way.

There tends to be a lot of negativity when discussing the USSR - there is an implicit selection bias here; in a US-centric forum, you are much more likely to encounter expats, and their stories will not generally be happy ones: in the end, something caused them to leave.

So it's good to see some contrasting views. Tell us about your life!

Next up: There tends to be a lot of negativity when discussing the North Korea ...

Pretty sure there are people who are actually happy there. Not that they can join HN for discussion though.

OP is here. I was a son of very ordinary parents, they both were doctors, second most underpaid profession after teachers in the USSR. In my post I just wanted to make a point that even in USSR if you wanted something and worked really hard to achieve it, you can get it. Without any help from your parents.

Well you would have to work very hard for things that you can get with no effort in western society such as traveling abroad. Also subject to many conditions including that your parents had never showed any descent etc.

Akademgorodok sounds so inspiring! If you don't mind me asking, what happened next? What did you end up doing?

Well, in 1990 I created a first FIDOnet node in USSR and became first regional coordinator of FIDOnet there. Next I graduated from Novosibirsk State University and opened my first business (ISP in Novosibirsk). Then in 1995 I moved to Moscow and became a first CTO of a first Russian stock exchange. Since that time I launched several startups and changed multiple CIO/CTO jobs at different Russian and international companies. In 2018 I understood that I fed up with Putin’s cleptocracy and moved from Moscow to Switzerland, now working as an enterprise architect for a large insurance business.

I don't mean to digress, but you seem like an interesting individual and I have several questions that you might be able to answer:

1) What was your first computer? Was it a Russian clone or a smuggled American or European one?

2) What was the USSR BBS scene like? What BBS software was in common use at that time?

3) Were you ever familiar with OGAS or latter-day Soviet/Russian equivalents to ARPANET?

4) Seeing as you were in Physics, did you ever meet the famous figures like Landau or tour areas like Dubna?

1) ES 1022 which was a clone of IBM/360 and SM-4, a clone of PDP-11

2) Maximus BBS was the most popular software to run a BBS in USSR in late 80s, in addition to FifoNet utilities for sending/receiving/reading messages. In 80s there were just a few BBSes but their number grew exponentially starting 1990.

3) Unfortunately OGAS ceased to exist before my time. I haven’t seen Soviet equivalent of ARPAnet either.

4) I‘m in Mathematics, not Physics and never visited Dubna. Although I had a tour once of accelerators in Novosibirsk Institute of Nuclear Physics, it was very cool experience.

When I was an intern at the Institute of Catalysis I was introduced to Yulii Khariton, chief designer of Soviet nuclear program. I don‘t remember details of that meeting unfortunately…

Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back, has no brain.

-Putin

Not a particularly good source of ideas though. Even though this one could be agreed to.

>I cannot say that my life in USSR was any kind of bleak or depressing

Of course it wasn't. People didn't know many grim things about the country they lived in because their information intake was carefully designed to exclude anything negative about the USSR and the Communist Party. They believed they live in "the greatest country in the world". The decades-long propaganda has produced so profound and long-lasting impact that many people in post-Soviet countries (especially in Russia) born in the Soviet times still long for that feeling, 30 years after the collapse of the USSR.

I see a stories here of happy Soviet people. One from current Russian minority (upper class back then by default) and one from party member. Let me tell you my family story. My grand grandfather was a clerk in independent Lithuania’s court before Soviet occupation. He went to gulag when Soviets came and died there. For the rest of the family the life was destroyed - they were outlawed. Education and work choices very limited, no party membership, occasional KGB checks. Especially during catholic celebrations like Eastern or Christmas. Few generations later I left for Germany and never looked back. Lithuania lost status of being western country in Soviet Union. Now it is just another weird faceless post Soviet country that made into EU and NATO. No strategy, no goals, no future. People and especially politicians hadn’t learned planing and choice making. At the moment this country is in a silent war against Russia, Belarus and even China: https://www.businessinsider.com/china-threatens-lithuania-wi... Oh well…

> Now it is just another weird faceless post Soviet country that made into EU and NATO. No strategy, no goals, no future.

You've been reading too much propaganda. Living in Lithuania is become better each year. Lithuania's GDP is like Belarus, while the population is 3x smaller. Lithuania has surpassed russia in GDP per Capita long time ago. Lithuania is #11 in doing business [1]. Lithuania is Largest Fintech hub in the EU in terms of licensed companies[2]. Lithuania is one of global leaders when it comes to laser technology. And currently, there are talks between Taiwan and Lithuania about semi-conductor factory. And that is being achieved in only 30 years or so.

Regarding being faceless. Lithuania has showed that it has a strong spine again and again against authoritarian regimes. By hosting Belarusian pro democracy leaders [3], by support Ukraine in every possible way in their path to democracy, and yes, supporting Taiwan, which resulted in spat between China and Lithuania. While we old western countries talk, Lithuania walks the talk.

Lithuania has very much a face. And that's the face of being pro democracy. Yes they are small and they rely on their partners support, but they have values.

[1] https://www.doingbusiness.org/en/data/exploreeconomies/lithu... [2] https://investlithuania.com/fintech-report-2020-2021/ [3] https://www.rferl.org/a/belarus-lithuania-official-oppositio...

Bring it on!!!

I really love that naive belief that lasers are somehow competitive in the world. I have 2 links for you: https://rekvizitai.vz.lt/m/imone/pieno_zvaigzdes/ and https://rekvizitai.vz.lt/m/imone/ekspla/

Lithuanian milk products are leading in the world! And they make some serious revenue compared to the lasers. Single German company is much bigger than everything laser related in Lithuania: https://app.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/maschinen...

I mean I was lured into this tale by Prof. Dr. Piskarskas too, but the reality is much different. Lithuania has magnificent food processing industry delivering products for the same old Soviet brotherhood countries as it did 50 years ago.

Regarding Taiwan and semiconductor factory. Sorry, I can’t take it serious being electrical engineer and working in semiconductor manufacturing.

The foreign policy is absolutely shit in Lithuania. Relationships with Poland and Latvia are a disaster. Relationship with Russia and Belarus plus China is kind of Cold War. Sorry, I can’t praise this. Just look at Israel: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/jordan-israel-agree-... You see, you don’t must like everybody in the world, but business is business and well being of of the own people should be more important than some insane moral principles.

> And they make some serious revenue compared to the lasers.

I don't know why you've linked ekspla, which has 4x lower revenue than Light Conversion. And sure, the revenue is bigger in Pieno Zvaigzde, than in Light Conversion, but the profit is almost 3x lower[1][2]. Also, look at the grown of revenue. It's like night a day.

> Single German company is much bigger than everything laser related in Lithuania

So? Am I to understand that Germany has won the competition in laser related technologies and Lithuania has no chance?

> Regarding Taiwan and semiconductor factory. Sorry, I can’t take it serious being electrical engineer and working in semiconductor manufacturing.

We shall see :)

> The foreign policy is absolutely shit in Lithuania. Relationships with Poland and Latvia are a disaster.

Source? Because Poland and Lithuania has been cooperating on multiple levels and their relationship is at the highest right now. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania also are cooperating on a lot of levels. Just recently, they've agree to create joint ‘operational area’ for defence[3]. They also agreed to jointly develop a MLRS artillery system for the first time. Thanks to russia, relationships are better than ever.

While relationships with authoritarian regimes were never warm to begin with so I don't see any loss here. Either you support pro-democracy or not. If not, relationship with these countries will be bad.

[1] https://rekvizitai.vz.lt/imone/pieno_zvaigzdes/apyvarta/ [2] https://rekvizitai.vz.lt/en/company/light_conversion/turnove... [3] https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1569645/baltic-stat...

I see, you are the real ambassador. I like that! But life is not black and white. There would be no loss for not being in a war against China, Russia and Belarus.

Could you give several examples of countries which have strategies, goals and future (and how you imagine it)? It would help better understand where you come from. I can think of several countries that have goals, some have strategies, but not many will have future with their goals and strategies or lack of it (e.g. China and Russia will fail IMHO, Israel, Japan and Germany will succeed, but that’s only my opinion)

See, it's unwise and spineless unless you suck up to Russia.

It’s hard to do such a difficult guessing. I will bet against so called democracies in the western world. They’re too corrupt and plan how to build and maintain short time money laundering schemes. Think about failed autobahn mount and mask buying schemes in Germany. Lithuanian railway and Belarus deal should be known better to you.

> They’re too corrupt

Compared to what? China? russia?

> Lithuanian railway and Belarus deal should be known better to you.

It's has been blown out of proportion without understanding the full picture, not corruption. "The US Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) has officially confirmed that Washington's sanctions against Belaruskali, one of the world's largest potash fertiliser producers and exporters, are not binding on Lithuania's state-owned railways.[1]"

Lithuanian railway cannot just terminate their contract otherwise they will face legal consequences in Court of Arbitration. They are looking for a legal way to kill the contract, but it takes time and planing.

[1] https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1568321/us-sanction...

Pick some other from the list: Vilnius Subway project, National airline, National stadium.

There are no state projects that are designed for wellbeing of the citizens. They are all made for state money laundering. You know why MO Museum is so different from everything in that country? It’s made by rich guy for people without selfish interests.

Corruption is rampant in non democratic countries, which is completely unsurprising. It's unsurprising also that there is silence around it.

I am asking what would you bet for.

I bet for China. They have agenda beyond next election. They can do unpopular stuff. Lithuania badly needs for example university downsizing, but it’s not popular decision and will never happen.

Well, China indeed can do unpopular stuff but they don’t have mechanism to identifying and promoting right and unpopular stuff that must be done. Actually they changed some things recently where this is strongly discouraged (something about reporting to party bad things I don’t remember exactly). In Lithuania we at least know what must be done.

I agree about universities in Lithuania, but I think some stuff was already done with financing in that regard and some universities might die naturally in Lithuania. Question is if that is enough.

Thanks for sharing. I couldn't help but have an instinctive reaction of envy when I read the last part of your comment. The country I'm from is currently under Russian occupation for trying to get closer to the EU, and here you are seemingly taking Lithuania's membership for granted. Joining the EU for sure doesn't magically solve everything, but can open up so many new opportunities for a post Soviet country. It must be nice to have the luxury to dismiss its usefulness so casually.

I would say Lithuania was just lucky and on time. There were 3 equally sized population groups at the time: pro Russia, pro EU and we-don’t-care. Pro EU was the loudest and most active, the voting was hard one with low participation, but still succeeded: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Lithuanian_European_Uni... I can’t guarantee the same outcome today.

> There were 3 equally sized population groups at the time: pro Russia, pro EU and we-don’t-care.

Pro russia equally sized? Where are you getting this from? It seems you're just a troll and I'll stop engaging with you now.

> can’t guarantee the same outcome today.

Lithuania has one of most positive view on EU[1].

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-u...

The day Brezhnev died it was really cold in Vilnius. The school was out and we went tobogganing.

I (b. 1973) lived in Vilnius from 1980 to 1986 and after I moved to the central Russia I noticed how much better it was in Lithuania. The food, the clothes, the people, everything had more color in it. I was really surprised how much poorer and bleaker the life was in RSFSR, at least in the part where I lived later.

Despite being a part of the USSR, Baltic republics felt more civilized and modern. Many tourists from the rest of the country enjoyed visiting to get the glimpses of the West.

That was the politics of USSR - to feed the small republics at the expense of russian people.

There was supply categories for every region - and most of RSFSR, except Moscow and Leningrad got 3rd or 4rth category, while caucasian republics and Baltics got 1 and second class.

That.. was not exactly true. We had giant pig farms and meat factories, from where almost all stuff that was produced was sent to Russia, whereas meat was scarce in local shops. So if stuff wasn't available here, then it must have been even worse in other places. And at the same time we were producing a lot more meat and foodstuff than the local population would have ever needed, but it was sent to some other places. Instead we got big heavy industry or military factories where the raw materials were brought in to produce useless stuff that we didn't need, that was again sent away to somewhere else. The stupid economics of soviet planned economy..

I am one of those folks (born in early 1980s in Minsk). One can get a taste of that era by listening to the amazing music from bands like Kino and Nautilus Pompilus.

Some example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWEfVZN64jU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syTqQ-TU_c8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aew6MJLyVL4

I agree with Kino, but Butusov (NP) just throws random words together and calls that a song.

I am not a fan of Butusov, but these are not random words 'Скованные одной цепью'/'bound by the same chains' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIljdb6I_IA (still Akvarium/Grebenshikov are categorically 'the best', no doubt about that! Also there is Shevchuk/DDT, there was Egor Letov and they had Yanka Dyagileva "Всё как у людей ;-)")

Punk Rock on an accoustic guitar, you didn't have that anywhere else, i think (actually it's poetry, if you ask me)

Моя оборона/My Defense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9LHowWc9Qs&list=OLAK5uy_kf0...

Пуля дура / Stupid bullet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FE9k6XPKhM&list=OLAK5uy_kf0...

Мы гуляли по трамвайным рельсам/We walked on the railway lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IQ7P1yvcJQ

“Alan Delon doesn’t drink cologne” (as you probably know) is not random: drinking cologne was very much a thing, due to alcohol rationing meant to combat drinking (which also lead to people drinking methanol and going blind or even worse.) There are also references to other aspects of Soviet household life.

Kino's music is amazing. Even though I cannot understand most of it, I still feel it gives me a tiny glimpse of what life was like over there during those times.

Your second link is a remake for the movie Лето though. Not as good as the famous original, that you can still hear in any protest in or near Russia to this day:

https://youtu.be/NKC8UfJ6CSE

Thank you for the revised link! Good that you mention Leto (which was a beautiful movie, despite many historical inaccuracies): Leto is set in the early, pre-perestroika 80s. The first link I posted - Elektrichka - is also from that era: it is about a man who on an electric commuter train (think Caltrain, but electrified: People’s Democratic Republic of California is behind USSR in that respected) that is taking him to a wrong destination. It is a metaphor for the state: as a result, the song was banned.

Contrast the song with Перемен (Changes): the unofficial anthem of my birth country‘s democracy movement. While the song is explicitly non-political (it is about making internal changes), it is able to convey the sentiment in USSR in the late 80s and early 90s (the song was written in 1985. prior to Perestroika.) To put another way, a song about the “gentle Nietzschean”/Schopenhauerian thesis of artists changing the world through their work, highlights the elective affinities between the agents of cultural change and the agents of political change.

An important thing to note: Kino’s front man, Victor Tsoi is of Korean descent. h Soviet Koreans, aka Koryo-Saram (there is roughly 1mm of them today in former USSR) came to Russian Empire during the Koryo dynasty (mostly from mid 19th to early 20th century.) They played an important role in the early days of USSR, but we’re deported to Central Asia as Stalin as he suspected them of harboring pro-Japanese sympathies (this would be equivalent to suspecting Jews of harboring pro-Nazi sympathies, which he also did in the case of my paternal grandfather the minister of transportation for Soviet Belarus.) Over 10% of their population died during the deportation.

Their plight was largely unknown until glasnost. The Kazakh film maker Rashid Nugmanov of Игла (Needle) fame - movie about drug addiction, a topic rarely discussed for most of USSR’s existence - which starred Tsoi and featured his music - portrayed their story in his critically acclaimed historical fiction film Месть (Revenge.)

In a tangential note relevant to HN’s usually discussed topics, Russia’s richest woman - she created e-commerce site wildberries while on maternity leave - is also of Korean descent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatyana_Bakalchuk

Kino. They were the best Soviet band.

Even though I was born just a few years before the collapse of the Soviet Union, some of the descriptions in this article resonate.

I don't remember what time of the year we had mandarins, but when it happened it felt like a very special occasion. I also had a little notebook of chewing gum wrappers. I think sometimes they also may have come with stickers inside. I especially collected the ones with wrappers and stickers of sports cars.

I knew of the concept of a Christmas-esque celebration. We did have a big celebration at that time of year with a tree, presents, and Ded Moroz with his granddaughter Snegurachka, but I always associated these things with New Year's eve. I still have trouble remembering what day exactly Christmas is some years and have to look it up, it seemed like such a random date compared to the big last day of the year.

I remember my childhood as being happy, but of course the vast majority of these memories came after the collapse. One of my favorite memories was our school getting a computer lab. For a few weeks, they let a few of us come in for special computer classes on Sundays (school was Mon-Sat). I remember having to copy instructions from pieces of paper, and once we finished we had a playable game. I always finished before the rest of the class and had a lot of time left to play.

I'm glad I was born on the brink of the collapse. My family's stories of the Soviet Union were complex, but didn't make me want to live there. On the one hand my mom talked about the good education and technology she got to work with. My grandmother was a math teacher and some sort of party official, so she was in good standing. On the other hand, apparently when I was a baby my parents still had to line up to buy bread and I would sometimes hear mention how my grandparents had to survive on grass during the Holodomor.

For those unfamiliar with history, today is the 30th anniversary of the final dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991.

There's another submission in queue with CNN's broadcast from the night of 25 December 1991 beginning with then-president George H. W. Bush (41st US president, father of G.W. Bush, 43rd) addressing the US and world by television:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29681271

In my experience as a westerner, the '80s and early '90s are subjects better not discussed. The exception are close friends and family, and then only when the subject comes up. That, or funny exotic stories from the '80s.

Random bits I've picked up that way: - winning a car (well, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAZ_Zaporozhets) in a lottery and driving it without a license. "Officer, I just forgot it at home. I wouldn't be so stupid to risk driving without a license." 1980's Latvia. - having to grind up pasta to make a birthday cake. In 1980's Riga. - having to eat bananas for days on end because a large box of bananas was what could be found. 1990's Latvia. - dumping gasoline in the ditches. The kolchoz had so much one could take, but what do you do if you have no use for so much gasoline? 1980's Latvia. - selling the privatisation certificates for a song in order to survive. 1990's Latvia.

They headline reminded me of this story, about the cosmonaut who watched the fall of the Soviet Union from space: https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/the-last-sovie...

there's so much literature about soviet people desiring democracy and the 'colorful' west. is there literature where the soviet people were happy with their lot in the soviet union?

they don't fit the narrative... happy people are boring news.

Read Branko Milanovic take about Yugoslavia: "How I lost my past" https://glineq.blogspot.com/2017/09/how-i-lost-my-past.html

nice! give me more please!

I was going to encourage you to submit that. No need, I see:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29680492

(Great essay.)

The article mentions that the parents of the kids who grew up during the transition period were conservative and compliant and didn't make a fuss. They knew the system was not great, but for them, it was what it was. There wasn't much to do but get on with life.

The kids were different, they began to have access to cartoons and other cultural experiences from the West and began to question why they had to make do with so little (during Brezhnev's time, GDP went into guns and away from butter).

In any event, why should people feel happy about living under an oppressive system -a system which stunted their potential? Their "police" were soviet milicija, so in a way they lived under occupation to booot.

> during Brezhnev's time, GDP went into guns and away from butter

The peak of shortages happened not during Brezhnev but in the 80's during Gorby's rule.

> a system which stunted their potential

Did launch man in space somehow. Plenty of people realized their potential.

Stores had cigs, vodka, butter and milk and tubers (awesome!!)

And so you stunt the growth not only of Russians but many other non-Russian nationalities so that a few scientists might have a summer dacha and a car and plane trips back to the city for wives to and fro the science town in nowheresville --while they are under threat to have their families sent to gulags if milestones aren't met... nice!

If you read Khalatnikov’s memoirs he realizes that whole country was turned into a gulag ostensibly for scientists’ sake and is remorseful of the fact

>"while they are under threat to have their families sent to gulags if milestones aren't met... nice!"

It was true during Stalin. Not sure about Kruschev era laws. After that nobody would be sent to gulag for not meeting milestones so cut the bullshit. It is like segregation in the US. It was true until it was not. Or that women in Canada could be jailed in specialized jails (they were called differently) for being of wrong moral character. Not true anymore either.

>> Stores had cigs, vodka, butter and milk and tubers (awesome!!)

Where do you get it from? Of course it depended on time and place, but you can buy a lot of stuff in Kyiv (for example) in 70's and 80's. Some things were 'deficit', but they were more of a luxury items. Also the quality was rather good, due to not having cost cutting.

>> a few scientists might have a summer dacha Dachas were not exactly a sign of the elite. Cars, on the other hand...

>> science town in nowheresville These things existed for some sort of top-secret military research, there were plenty of R&D labs in big cities for a more mundane subjects.

You just have an axe to bury with communism, don't you?

> In any event, why should people feel happy about living under an oppressive system -a system which stunted their potential? Their "police" were soviet milicija

They can be happy to live in the US and have police kneeling on their neck until they're dead.

Don't swallow your contraband.

In the US a callous cop gets tried and gets sent to prison.

In the USSR you got taken around the back, shot in the head and dumped in a hole on the ground, or if slightly luckier you got a chance to freeze to death after the commander of the gulag had you tamp down the three foot snow for his truck to drive in in your ragged boots and in your escape attempt you get lost and starve and freeze to death a couple of miles away but the commander doesn’t bother with a search party knowing what your fate is.

It really hurts your credibility when you mix up distinct Soviet eras.

The Gulag system began to be dismantled immediately upon Stalin's death and was fully dismantled by 1960.

Just because it began to dismantle it doesn't mean it was completely gone.

Stories about KGB are popular for a reason, you know.

By late USSR, the KGB wouldn't put a bullet in the back of your head, either. They'd hand you over to "experts" who would declare you insane and shove you into a straitjacket - and even that treatment was generally reserved for active dissidents.

By the way, the police and the KGB often didn't get along. There was a famous case where a couple of cops who were very drunk robbed a high-ranking KGB official (he was carrying food from one of those "special" stores). When their senior found out, he decided that it'd be better to cover it up, and had the KGB guy killed and dumped the body in the woods. The KGB eventually unraveled the case - and many other similar ones, of cops partaking in robberies and beatings.

(https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2020-12-26-%0A---war-of-th...)

So on the whole, I suspect you'd be far more likely to be brutalized by the Soviet cops than by KGB.

His writing style and credibility live on a different planets.

Gulag still lives under a different name: FSIN

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/11/10/new-russian-prison... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/08/i-was-always-s...

Something with not entirely the same effect happens in the US but not often to rich white men.

>In the US a callous cop gets tried and gets sent to prison.

You're forgetting to include the fact that the cop was lucky enough to be recorded by a member of the population, that person had the courage to post the video, and this whole process required riots in all major cities to occur before it became serious enough to for the courts to properly prosecute.

How many other offenses have gone unprosecuted? For example this same officer had a prior complaint from 2017 for hitting a 14-year-old black boy in the head with a flashlight so hard he required stitches and then afterwards holding him down with his knee for almost 17 minutes, ignoring the boy's complaints that he could not breathe.

Thats just this officer, in a country this size there are likely tons of horror stories.

>"In the US a callous cop gets tried and gets sent to prison."

Sure. Whole 2 times when they were caught on video and caused mass movements.

How is the comparison helpful?

If that’s the alternative to being a political prisoner in the USSR, then I’ll take it.

Hey Vitya, we were wondering -- do you actually work at one of those famous troll farms, or are your HN comments just an after-hours gig?

>> why should people feel happy about living under an oppressive system

Because its the only system they know, and they've been told forever its the best system there is.

For example; There exists a system where basic health issues can bankrupt you, where the police are above the law, where citizens can, and do, buy machine guns, where the courts are setup to protect the rich and powerful, where politicians can lie without consequence, that separates immigrant children (babies) from parents (and then has no way to reunite them), that has jailed over 1% of its population. Where people get no paid sick or holiday leave.

Why would people feel happy about living under this oppressive system?

Now you probably had some strong reactions to the question. And therein lies your answer. People everywhere, regardless of the system, believe what they are taught to belive, and they are taught that their existing way is the best.

where citizens can, and do, buy machine guns

Sounds kinda awesome to be honest.

And Soviet corruption sounded pretty awesome for my grand-uncle, and his children, grand-children, and various hangers-on. He had an incredibly lucrative career over his life, floating from one bit of graft to another (He continued to be quite successful at it long after the fall of communism, with his career peaking during an 'obscure' international sporting event that took place in Sochi in 2014).

I'm sure it sounded less awesome to the people he hurt, but hey, it's all relative to where you stand, what you personally value, and how concerned about externalities.

Who are the people who own machine guns hurting?

An argument can easily be made that normalizing gun fetishism, and the prevalence of public carry leads to a society that, during tense situations is often a trigger pull away from escalating to immediately lethal violence.

It's rare for people to get shot and killed at a, say, a political protest in a society without such norms. It's rarer yet for the killer to be found to have been in the right.

You don't see teenagers in Canada think that it's a swell idea to drive across the country so that they could LARP Call of Duty at a protest with an AR-15. The two cultures' outlook on guns is different, and one very actively discourages that kind of behaviour... While the other one seems to encourage it.

No, that's not a valid argument at all. Most people aren't even aware you can buy machine guns.

And what does owning machine guns have to do with public carry? I asked about machine gun ownership.

And what does a teenager driving over state lines have to do with machine gun ownership?

You're really stretching to answer my question.

> And what does owning machine guns have to do with public carry? I asked about machine gun ownership.

'I don't like a society where people can and do buy machine guns' is a pretty obvious shorthand for 'I don't like American gun culture'.

And a lot of people feel very strongly, in both directions, about the consequences of American gun culture.

i cant understand why would anyone other than military (even that for a deterrent maybe) would want a machine gun where every bullet can kill and u can fire so many bullets every second.

The US Constitution makes it clear that the people and the military are not on the same page. The US people is supposed to have access to all the weapons that the military has... According to the old law.

This is a cultural consequence of achieving independence from an oppressor. People who desire control of others will always organize, oppress and build militaries. They invade, so peace is not an option with this personality type. Hence why seemingly normal people can buy machine guns. - There are predators around.

The difference in the US is that the default is you can unless you have a good reason not too.

I recall reading there has never been a crime committed with a legally owned machine gun in the US”. I think that changed a while ago when some criminal murdered someone, but do you believe banning everyone from owning something that had been used in a crime once?

That seems very paternalistic. Which is a fine stance. It’s just not the one the US adheres too.

I can’t follow your logic at all here. You called out specifically machine gun ownership.

You realize people legally own machine guns in Canada, right? Sure, you can’t get a permit now, but former owners are grandfathered in.

What do you think of Canada’s fun (edit: gun) culture?

You "forgot" where the guys who were killed chased and attacked the guy who shot them. You also "forgot" the guy who was shot in the arm had just pulled a pistol with that arm.

As to the "political protest", they were burning buildings and attacking people. (Curiously, many of these businesses were black-owned.)

The people chasing him were responding to what they thought was an active shooter situation, in a country where active shooter situations are a common occurrence. That's also a consequence of American gun culture.

There's a reason you don't see protests and hockey riots turning into gunfights north of the 49th. People don't bring guns to them, because they know that if they use them, they are going to get an absolute world of shit dumped on their heads by the courts.

No, they were career criminals who came there to commit violence with impunity.

> The people chasing him were responding to what they thought was an active shooter situation

Even if we assume that they actually thought that, they attacked someone who they had no reason to believe was involved in said "active shooter situation." The most favorable interpretation is that they were vigilantes who attacked with deadly force.

If Rittenhouse had chased down someone you agreed with politically, claiming "an active shooter situation", you'd want his head.

> Why would people feel happy about living under this oppressive system?

Because you read too much media.

Or you are or know one of the victims living on the wrong side of this arrangement.

Also, there exists a system that so many people are trying to enter, that it has to pass laws to prevent ~70% of the earth from immediately emmigrating there. One that has made more immigrant 1st-generation wealthy than any other. One that directly or indirectly defends the entirely western world with their military, and receives very little monetary payment for doing so. One that has 4% of the global population but 55% of corporate valuation. It also went to the moon first, as it was inventing all the technologies to enable it.

> prevent ~70% of the earth from immediately emmigrating there

Quite an unrealistic percentage and I speak as someone who did move to that place.

> It also went to the moon first, as it was inventing all the technologies to enable it.

USSR: first satellite, first animal in space, first animal returning from space, first human in space, first woman in space, first object orbiting the Sun, first hard lunar landing, first pictures of the dark side of the moon, first space station, first spacewalk, first soft landing on he moon, first probe to another planet, first landing on another planet, first satellite on another planet.

USA: first communications satellite, first weather satellite, first man of the moon (and conveniently the space race ends here).

The real prize from the space race was the ICBM.

Interesting comment. Do you think the only country that has been to the moon somehow lost the space race at some point if you choose to continue the space race til today?

Hard to tell, but it was consistently losing to the Soviet Union by most space-dick measurement metrics. Please don't see me as defending the USSR in any way, it's a widely accepted fact that the USSR was 0.5-2 years ahead in most milestones.

My comment was more in line to contradict the statement of "this country invented everything!" when obviously the Soviets had a strong know how that certainly didn't come from the US [0].

The man on the moon is what it is: an incredibly impressive feat with an objectively terrible risk/benefit ratio, but pulling it off makes it great for propaganda purposes. Once the US did that, the crewed moon landing programs in the USSR, which already had problems, were instantaneously de-funded, as the value of being the first was gone.

It's not casual that since the space race ended, rational thinking kicked in and 100% of surface exploration and analysis has been done with unmanned rovers and sample return missions. And in my opinion, unmanned missions are more impressive from a technical standpoint, but that's another topic.

This is an article on the subject that covers well the main reason why the USSR failed at what they seemed to be winning. [1]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/07/11/this...

It's a complicated issue. You can perhaps argue both ways. For example, one could say space race definitely didn't end with the Moon landings. Even though there was 1975 Apollo-Soyuz flight, the technology and science went ahead - the whole epoch of space stations, winged spacecrafts, automatic probes and commercial projects happened after "the small step for man".

USSR did have less resources to dedicate to space. USA spent massively more on the Moon race - and while the technology was somewhat conservative in places, they reached the goal. The close call of Apollo-13 could illustrate both how stretched the resources were and how sufficient level of redundancy was. USA won the Moon landing, even though USSR claimed many secondary prizes - Zond flights, automatic orbiting, landing, Lunokhods and probe returns. Even though Luna-24 clearly brought important materials, still the scientific return from - massively more expensive - Apollo flights could be considered higher. Yet USSR spent maybe 1/5 of what USA spent on the Moon race.

Space stations are also somewhat hard to compare. While USSR had much more, and with better capabilities, the Skylab's heritage is still important - even today. Same goes to Shuttle/Buran - while Buran flew just one, rather symbolic flight, and Shuttle run a massive scientific (and others) program, still Energiya-Buran project produced Zenit launcher, family of engines leading to e.g. RD-180, not to mention the development of underlying technologies - e.g. Al-Li alloys and (I believe) friction welding were worked on in the scope of the project. Shuttle can be accused in killing two crews and in being excessively expensive. Buran can be accused in helping to bankrupt the USSR.

USSR had quite good automatic probes at the time of breaking, too. VEGA program was a resounding success, while Phobos was much less so - even though quite ambitious. Only pieces of those capabilities survived - post-Soviet Russia managed to participate well in commercial launch market and practically created space tourism industry, but seems like it works well only initially, and serious investments are hard to come by. Yet coming back to USSR it's hard to disagree that the space program - till the end of the country - was quite robust, despite the loss of the Moon race.

We can still consider the manned Moon flights as the biggest achievement in the manned space. But going back to USSR/USA comparison - we aren't even sure if USA is able to repeat them easily (USA can, but with lots of efforts, which modern programs demonstrate), which shows importance of political will. So it looks like there were different "kinds of sport" and participants showed different results in them, and if we assume that only Moon landings matter, then USA is the clear winner. The reality is probably more complex.

Don't forget Mir! Or how the ISS is built around modules meant for Mir 2.

Yes, I've mentioned space stations - which were the next frontier after the Moon race for manned spaceflight.

USA had a tremendous success with space probes - starting with Hubble. Actually, Voyager - still chugging along - and even Vikings - started massive Mars science - but I'd consider the wave of many space projects - Pathfinder, Galileo, Cassini, many space telescopes etc. - started roughly with Hubble launch.

In manned space USA was arguably tied with Shuttle, which eventually stopped flying in 2011, and had to send astronauts with Soyuzes; only when SpaceX completed the Crew Dragon, USA resumed sending people to orbit again; but these are better known recent events. Similarly USA recently got much stronger in commercial space sectors, including regarding manned space - launches, suborbital space; here modern Russia so far offers the same tourist flights as 20 years ago, while having troubles in modernizing, or even maintaining, the launcher fleet. But that's Russia, not USSR.

So if we stop the clock at the moment USSR dissolves, the relative space capabilities are different than now. In space USSR had - up until the end - enough of achievements to be considered world class.

https://lettersofnote.com/2010/09/07/is-there-a-space-progra...

Speaking as an immigrant, there are quite a few countries out there that are more lucrative for third world immigrants than US. Canada, for example, or even Australia. Generally speaking, it's places with a decent welfare safety net.

You should try living under the Soviet system to get a proper answer for yourself.

Because its the only system they know, and they've been told forever its the best system there is.

People in the late Soviet Union were quite aware they were not living under the best system there is and most of them did not particularly believe being told things to that effect repeatedly any more than people in western societies believe ads.

The soviet Union collapsed because Russia under Gorbachev stopped subsidising all the other countries, which were dependant on Russia for money to buy basic things like food from the west.

It becomes harder to convince people of your position while they are starving. So yeah people stopped believing.

But there's a Long time from 1917 to 1990. And for the bulk of that time people believed enough for the status quo to be maintained.

And plenty of people in Western societies belive adds, and the evidence for this is that companies and parties keep making them...

Your theory of Soviet collapse runs very much against recorded facts that you can easily look up, though. The Soviet union wasn't made up of 'other countries' and Soviet satellite states were not dependent on the Soviet Union for food and no Warsaw Pact country or Soviet republic had starving people in 1989.

They were not utterly oblivious to the outside world and accepting of the government and party line from 1917 to 1990. The last one already sounds completely implausible it should give you pause - that would make generations of Soviet people utter naifs. They weren't.

A comment in a forum seems inadequate to cover the root causes of the soviet breakup, but it ultimately did come down to food and money.

Firstly, the soviet Union was made up of a number of separate countries (as the original article notes things were quite different in Russia, Lithuania and East Germany. While all lead by communist parties, all operated in fear of Russian occupation (as happened in Hungary in 1956 and czechoslovakia in 1968).

Soviet block countries were dependent on Russia for aid, and military support. In the late 80's Russia was unwilling, and unable, to spend the necessary money to cover all the needs, so states prioritised food (on the basis that starving people are seldom compliment). Necessary maintaince of (for example) the border fence between Hungary and Austria is not paid for (by Russia) leading to the first domino falling and a route being opened to the west.

In Poland and Berlin popular movements progress quickly, and in both cases Gorbachev refuses to use the Russian military to prop up those govts.

These are but the broadest strokes though - obviously there are a lot of moving parts, and a lot of different populations in play. But money is at the root of it all, and Warsaw pact countries needed money to import food from the west.

Sure but you're weaseling out of the things you originally said, neither of which are true - that there was universal and broad belief in the ideology of the system because basically people had not heard any better, all the way up to 1989. And that at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, Soviet republics or Warsaw countries were starving.

Your newer stuff isn't much better (Hungary didn't let East Germans into Austria because the fence was under-maintained) but that's probably past the point at which should wrap this up.

The simplest way is to look ay net migration between EU and US to realize if things are as horrible as you think they are.

In summary, the emigration of EU citizens to the US is not characterized by overcrowded flights and waiting times. It is, rather, a small and steady flow. Nevertheless, this small flow possesses exceptional skill and education levels. Behind the deceivingly low numbers is a huge potential for wealth creation that is permanently migrating to the US. The effects of this migration can be significant for many countries, especially the UK and France. Therefore, it is important that we know more about why these exceptionally talented Europeans move to the US [1]

[1] https://www.bruegel.org/2015/09/eu-immigration-to-the-us-whe...

Can someone explain why you downvoted the comment? Unless for personal reasons you didn't like the data I supplied

And despite this apparently a million people legally and illegally enter this place despite these issues apparently worse than the Soviet Union.

Why, instead, don’t these million plus seek a life in China or Cuba, if that system is, apparently better than the North American system?

In addition, Americans are actually free to leave but very few do, especially those affected by your examples of suffering from the system. We know people of very few means can emigrate, so given poor Americans have more purchasing power than poor who move here from elsewhere, if it were repressive we’d see an exodus of Americans to greener freer pastures.

Do you understand that your reply proves my point?

There are 200 odd countries in the world, but you belive your country is the best, well, because some number from over there want to come here.

You want to belive your country is the best, your whole life you've been told by your authorities that it is the best, that everyone wants to come live here, and you've heard this as so often you've come to believe it.

This is fine - you are not alone, most people in most countries are perfectly happy with their system. Most people don't want to immigrate - whatever they have, wherever they are, is the home they know.

Unfortunately believing we are the best prevents us from being better. We cannot fix it unless we admit it is broken (whatever It is) and if we start from a position of "we are the best" then it's hard to admit some stuff is broken.

My grandma (born 1943, 30s in 1970s) says that these times were felt as very stable and carefree. She is a worker class which moved from Moscow to the East of Volga region at WW2, has a financial education and worked as an industrial accountant. Yes she was amazed in trips to Moscow and Eastern Europe, but she also never thought much of how to live a live. Nowadays she feels bad for us new citizens who must try hard to get even basic things. Most of older people in their 70’s I know personally are fond of these times, cause they felt “capitalism” on their own skin in the 90s. That regime solved all the issues any “honest worker” could have, and they weren’t ready or educated to solve them on their own. I know there is a survivorship bias and people who didn’t like it probably either not live here or are dead, but this is how people feel happy about living there. Personally I am not a travel-meet-talk-freedom guy (37yo) and wouldn’t mind living under such regime today, provided modern materials and products, e.g. China. I don’t see how my way of thinking or living would be any beneficial to me in “free western” countries, except maybe if I worked as an US military engineer or something like that, which isn’t realistic.

>> (during Brezhnev's time, GDP went into guns and away from butter).

Is there any empirical evidence supporting this? There were many improvements in the life typical citizen in the 1964-1982 era, a lot of better housing(which means more people were able to leave villages for cities, which had infinitely better infrastructure), in my city countless facilities were built in that era.

>> The kids were different, they began to have access to cartoons and other cultural experiences from the West

The cartoons mentioned in the article are Soviet cartoons. Access to Western 'cultural experiences' was more or less present from roughly death of Stalin to start of Perestroika. French films were frequently shown. I think after 1988 or so Western entertainment production flooded the Soviet Union.

>> and began to question why they had to make do with so little That's an interesting take. For example, 'kids' in SU had access to free healthcare and higher education, and a better quality high schools, which the West didn't provide to it's citizens. And the WW2 devastated USSR and there was no Marshall plan. And, for example, Imperial Russia had GDP far below US at 1913 (So these countries were much poorer then the West to begin with)

In any event, why should people feel happy about living under an oppressive system -a system which stunted their potential? I don't think 'oppressive' system is something that has a clear meaning. There were restrictions on travel, on starting and owning the businesses, and political life was structured differently from representative democracy. For some people it was fine, for some it wasn't. As is the current marriage between capitalism and representative democracy.

>> Their "police" were soviet milicija, so in a way they lived under occupation to booot.

Baltic countries were indeed under occupation. They were integrated into Soviet union by military force, compared to other republics, which 'joined' the SU as a result of civil war. That explains that fervent Baltic anti-communism, because socialism was always something brought from abroad, from Russia, something basically not needed.

"milicija" is just a term for police, so that has no relation to occupation.

I indirectly knew Soviet culture during the late Brezhnev era and forward, but never lived in the USSR myself. It seems that Russians were generally proud of their society and optimistic about its direction during the 1950-1960s. It was in the 1970s that disillusion set in. There was much optimistic literature about Soviet life produced in the 1950-1960s that represented honest belief.

In the West that was the same too. Things jumped the shark around 1967-68: the "Summer of Love" and the moonshot. That was the peak of optimism.

Soviet sailors would anchor in European ports in the years after the revolution, and people would ask if they wanted to defect to the West. Why would we want to live outside the USSR they replied.

Actually, French and German authorities feared the ideas these sailors might put into the heads of their working class and tried to stifle them. Pictures like Battleship Potemkin were banned for similar reasons.

This started changing in the 1950s. China declared during the Sino-soviet split that the USSR had played itself out and the Chinese communist party was now at the vanguard of fast-moving change, and that seems to have been correct.

It was always possible that someone in the group of those sailors was affiliated with KGB, so nobody would ever say to the foreigners what they actually think. There would be also consequences for your family if one defects. In the end why would anyone leave your own country without having any prospects and social ties elsewhere. There were of course few naive people who managed to flee, but those were certainly not the stories with the happy end, once they realized that all these shiny bright colors were just empty shell that hides the ugliness of capitalism.

Oh, plenty of old folks fondly remember the Soviet past. Especially those people who liked the idea of communism and benefitted from being active communists, like my grandmother (and I don't mean that evil communist stereotype about sending everyone to Gulag, I mean being active in unions, organizing work etc.). Many people were simply indifferent. Soviet people desiring nothing but freedoms and American merchandise is a very one-sided narrative.

My son had an assistant teacher who’d grown up in the DDR (East Germany). She was really sad that it was gone and felt West Germany was a disaster. She only moved west because her Land (state) was “mismanaged by the Westerners who showed up” so she couldn’t make a living.

An example of one of the tragedies of unification? Her brother had become an entrepreneur and then had to work on Saturdays.

> Her brother had become an entrepreneur and then had to work on Saturdays.

In the second part of the 1980s (or maybe since the early 1980s? I can't remember exactly, I was just a kid) Ceausescu's regime imposed work on Saturdays, and for some domains even once every two Sundays (like it happened to my dad, who worked in constructions).

One of the first decisions taken in 1990 by the new democratic regime once Ceausescu fell was to eliminate working Saturdays, i.e. to give a full weekend to working people. It's funny cause the newly formed opposition to that new regime (the forerunners of today's centre-right political, liberal forces) were pretty critical of that decision, saying things like "as bad as the Romania's economy left to us by Ceausescu is we need to work more, not less!".

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30200112-secondhand-time

As someone born in ussr ans still living in Vilnius I can tell you there was no much happyness back then. Obviously there are happy moments in life, no matter how poor you are, but we know it is a bit better when you have something to eat. I am not a fan of consumerism, but I take western culture for having a choice what you do. The soviet erra didn't do that. Orwell's Animal Farm describes well the reality in soviet time...

As someone born in a smaller place in Lt I can totally relate to your words!

But somehow my little part of lithuania (very north east) feels like an empty shell these days, compared to what it was 20-30-40 years ago.. No people, no economic activity, just empty. I know this is not how it feels in Vilnius - the place gets better by the day, but deeper Lithuania feels deserted.

Is this happiness?

This is time and structure of society, not soviet times or not. I have been to deep Russia places where they had gulags, etc. 10 years ago. Inta, Vorkuta, Irkutsk and plenty small towns around and I can tell a few things which are very clearly seen - when the train passes 200kilometers from Moscow - it is deserted with nothing new. You could even experience that by going to Moscow by bus and back. You will be surprised how clean and amazing everything looks when you pass russian/latvian border on your way back. Yes - living in suburbs can be harder, but the difference in cleanliness and life quality (while can be worse than in city) is day and night in Russia and in the Baltics with Baltics being superior.

Maybe you are right, I've only been to, say, 5-7 major cities in Russia.

What I am saying is that for people like my parents, grandparents and myself it's really hard to compare life in Lithuania these days and the older times as there's nothing left to compare, really. 27 of 30 of my classmates are spread throughout Europe, including myself. I have more lithuanian friends in uk than I do back in Lt.

Good for them, I suppose, not so good for places I care about. And this is how many ppl from remote Lt places feel like.

Speaking from a country that was never part of Soviet Union, this is just https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization

It has been happening for decades, all over the world.

Sure, a well-known process.

I think in the Baltic states this is magnified by population decrease and internal EU migration.

Population:

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/lithuania-pop...

I think the population decrease numbers can be multiplied by 2 if you take EU emigration into account.

I see it as the biggest long-term problem Lithuania is facing. The country is not that big and crowded to begin with, and in 20-30 years it's projected to be even smaller.

And the society is just not ready for the obvious solution - immigrants.

I know at least one case where person was happier under Soviets than under democracy here in Lithuania, but I doubt that he did not want democracy. Lithuania had two problems occupation by Russia and soviet regime forced by Russia and you cannot really separate that. Here in Lithuania communism is almost equal to nazism.

Lots of such things were written in the Soviet Union, not much is being read today or have been translated into English.

Here in Czechia (not USSR but close), lot of older people long for the old days.

They had one job for life, the state made sure. They had apartment or house, the state made sure (if you were young family expecting child, they would just give you one). The wages and pensions were enough to live on, the state made sure.

In their eyes, there were a lot less existential threats (like losing a job or the rent getting too high you lose place to live) than under the new regime, life was "fair", no fancy enterpreneurs making millions while working people struggle.

Jumping to a world where nothing is certain and you're two bad months from homelessness after a lifetime of working was quite a shock for them. The message (however not all that real) of the old system was "we're all in this together" and the new one was "everyone for themselves, no caring about others" especially in the wild years after revolution. Some people are still sad about that.

(They also turn to fascist and populist politicians now as a replacement which isn't great.)

what happens to artists/musicians/poets? did they have to work at a day job compulsorily to have wages/house/pension etc?

As far as I know, the ones cozy with the regime were cared for (well beyond normal people) while underground artists worked odd jobs like night receptionists, janitors, boiler room operators or were in prison. (edit: also uranium mines for the ones who pissed off the state)

Those tend to get overlooked by people longing for the old days.

perhaps if the artist is cozy with the regime they cant be critical of the regime?

can parents support their child that is an artist with their income? or the state knows everything about the artist (her age, fit to work so on) and will compulsorily draft them to work?

It was illegal not to work in the Soviet Union. There was even a name for such people who weren't officially employed - "tuneyadets".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_(social_offense)

Young people were assigned jobs on finishing schooling. There was not much "looking for a job". Unless you had the right contacts, the closest thing to deciding where to work at was to pick a higher education - if you picked automotive engineering, you'd end up in a different place than if you picked medicine or something.

>> young people were assigned jobs on finishing schooling

Could you provide evidence for this?

"Job by distribution" was no secret and it is a well-known thing among people from post-soviet countries. Graduates were obliged to work at assigned place, usually for three years.

It's hard to find English source. You could try machine translation of this wikipedia page [1] - but that says it was mandatory only in 1951 to 1959 and then it was changed to a recommendation.

I know my uncle was supposed to go to one company but then that didn't work our for some reason and he had to look for a job himself, which was supposed to be rare. That would be early 1980s.

[1]: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Um%C3%ADst%C4%9Bnka

For what it's worth, that's what the vast majority of artists do today. Spending most of your time and energy doing stuff that doesn't make money doesn't typically lead to a comfortable lifestyle.

Was Tarkovsky, for example, cozy with the regime?

There were also a plenty of 'underground' artists, who had a day job of being a book illustrator, and did some stuff on the side, which they only would show to the close circle.

The artists were propaganda or workplace safety poster painters or they made statues of Lenin or of wartime heroes. The musicians were lucky enough to be able to play classical music but they also had to sing patriotic songs. The poets were either censored or had to write patriotic or propaganda pieces. Culture was ran by the state. Real literature like Roadside Picnic circulated undrground.

Well, first of all Roadside Picnic was actually published by the state. Then, the state funded a rather expensive Tarkovsky movie, inspired by the book ("Stalker"). I think I even had this book at parent's apartment. Plenty of Strugatsky's brothers novels were actually published by the state publishing houses. I think they ran into some problems with their more satirical pieces ("Tale of Troika" comes to mind, for example).

Your description of artists' life is pretty simplistic and one-sided. There were some people who did propaganda posters, but there were many things that existed outside the political domain, from book illustrations, to paintings with less ideological overtones, to working in theater. There was also Soviet cinema and animation, which would hardly be seen as only a propaganda vehicle, there was a lot of very nuanced works, which raised important questions. A lot of good stuff was shelved, or circulated underground of course.

Have you seen this film? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Look_Away

It is an interesting film in general, and in context of your comment from the politics of art perspective -- it starts with a Nazi lecture on the "degenerate art" of 20s-30s, to art class lectures in Communist times, and ends with the equally ideological forces dictating "what's art" in West Germany (where are hero finally achieves fame and fortune.) It's East German variety of old regime/new regime but likely will resonate at some level.

There's a great story about one writer, Yevgeny Zamyatin, author of We about the relation to the State ideology at the beginning of USSR and his subsequent emigration.

The Russian Novel That Foresaw — but Underestimated — Totalitarianism

https://www.newyorker.com/books/second-read/the-russian-nove...

I'm not talking about the USSR because I haven't lived there, but Eastern Europe. Yes, you are right, my description is simplistic but art was being amputated by the communist regimes. The Strugatsky novel was rejected on grounds of faul language and the Russian version was initially heavily edited. Of course it was published by the state, as all publishing houses were state owned before 1990.

Artists got paid to produce art, that was their day job.

We all have family or friends who were artists before 89. The state arranged structures for artists to have jobs and even subsidised it strongly, so working people could afford to experience culture.

" is there literature where the soviet people were happy with their lot in the soviet union?"

Of course. It was a propaganda regime after all, so there are tons of books where the heroic simple workers or even children fight along red soldieres or party members against corruption and the various evils of capitalism.

I have some lying around and they are interesting, to get a feel of the time, but are not really the greatest literature ever written. Because to get success as a writer, it was encouraged to write like this. In the sense, that you would loose permission to write and publish, or worse, if the official thought you work was not helping the progressive spirit.

I would say it is more about disillusionment with capitalism and democracy after the collapse of Soviet Union. In Ukraine for a decade after collapse the left-wing parties, such as Communists, Socialists, Agrarian party were very popular. I know a lot of people, who are in their 50's and 60's and older, who now see a lot of good in Soviet structure, yet in the late 80's almost everyone was either negative towards SU or apolitical

I'm part of this last Soviet generation. All in all, I would consider my childhood a happy one. I am of course much happier with my US-born children's quality of life and opportunities, but there was no point of comparison back then and I got to have experiences they will not.

I was born in Tselinograd in 1987. All Russian people of older age who I knew remember USSR with fondness. That could be just nostalgic. Some older Kazakh people are different though, they like independence from Russia.

There's a lot - mostly in Russian, of course. In my opinion and experience, most people (no less than 80%) of the former USSR regret, many of them deeply regret, the fall of USSR. In the Western opinion bubble, opposite viewpoint prevails. "Incorrect" opinions are usually dismissed as propaganda.

There were such people. It really depends on what you want in life. One thing that 1960-80s USSR was very good at was stability. So, you might not have much food on your table, and it might not be particularly good, but you knew it'd be there. Ditto for housing, transportation etc. I can think of some people in US that'd take this deal, even if it meant they would have no freedom of speech or movement, and no political power, thereafter.

I have childhood memories from 1980s communist Bulgaria and the following transition. Though never a part of the USSR, it was considered the most loyal satellite in the Eastern bloc, especially during the Brezhnev era. Drab, dreary, colourless city life, sure. On the other hand, it was a youth-oriented society with many progressive elements. There was zero street crime and drug usage was practically unheard of. Young people were encouraged to do sports and participate in competitions, or study exact sciences and mathematics, or play musical instruments. Parents never had to worry about whether they can afford child care, or whether their children will be admitted in the right school. There was a common base standard and it was good enough.

My biggest fear when USSR collapsed was highlighted in these threads. People are either ignorant of what WAS USSR and eventually start reminiscing about the great childhoods they had.

I’m older, born and raised in Soviet Ukraine. God help you all with your naïveté.

The fall of USSR is a destruction of the civilization in a sense (the lasting victory of "the dog eats dog" world over "all people are brothers").

Do you sincerely think that there is not enough dirt voiced against USSR--it is laughable: the propaganda made USSR to be equivalent to the fascist Germany (the irony)--no help is required.

The USSR was in terms of violence and human rights violation at least equivalent to nazist germany, and in practical terms worse, as the Soviet State was far more long-lived than the Nazist State.

You are just confirming my point.

There's not ENOUGH dirt in the world to lay at the foot of that regime.

One can have no regrets over USSR as such, but still be unhappy about how it fell apart. Did we really have to go through the whole bloody mess of late 80s to early 90s? Armenia vs Azerbaijan in Karabakh and elsewhere, Georgia vs Abkhazia/Adjaria/Ossetia, the bloody civil war in Tajikistan, numerous ethnic massacres all across Central Asia (e.g. the Osh riots), and so on.

It is unexpected to see an article here about Lithuania from Aljazeera. It looks quite good as well. I was born when Brezhnev died so my parents were we people in transition (while my father was prepared better for it than many people).

Al Jazeera is actually a really serious organisation. I find their coverage to be better than that of the BBC and waay better than that of CNN International.

You just have to account for their biases (they're from Qatar etc.), but that holds true of absolutely everybody.

I was born in Soviet Union in 1990. Thinking about that is weird.

What I noticed from many people growing up in former communist states is that they seem to have similar issues as people that lived in jail for a long time. In jail you have a very regular live and you don‘t have any responsibility for anything. You also cannot change anything. You try to make the best out of it.

But after you leave jail live outside seems awfully complicated. So many decisions, so much responsibility, so many expectation what you should or what you should not do is often overwhelming for these people. And if they don’t get help (and many people from former communist countries never got any kind of help) they struggle with their new freedom. So many of them glorify their time back in jail, where everything was so simple. And this is of course true to some extent. But it still was a jail.

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