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Comment by Wolfenstein98k | Hacker News Reader

Do they know why the shot skyrockets myocarditis risk mostly among young men?

Like what's the mechanism?

"Although the mechanisms for development of myocarditis are not clear, molecular mimicry between the spike protein of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) and self-antigens, trigger of preexisting dysregulated immune pathways in certain individuals, immune response to mRNA, and activation of immunologic pathways, and dysregulated cytokine expression have been proposed."

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA....

"An potential avenue for vaccine-associated myocarditis may be a nonspecific innate inflammatory immune response, or perhaps an interaction between the encoded viral spike protein of the mRNA and an as-yet undetermined cardiac protein. Studies have hypothesized that the antibodies generated in response to the mRNA spike protein may react with surface antibodies of the cardiomyocytes of susceptible hosts, provoking an inflammatory reaction and associated tissue damage."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14760584.2022.2...

The spike protein RNA vaccine saturates the body causing an inflammatory response especial so in certain muscles that use lipids (vaccine contains lipid as a transport mechanism) as a primary source of energy such as the heart muscle. A good interview of this is [1] Joe Rogan Experience episode #1747 - Dr. Peter A. McCullough

[1] https://open.spotify.com/episode/0aZte37vtFTkYT7b0b04Qz

Edit: [2] The CDCs myocarditis page on this since the Dr. McCullough is upsetting people here. And just so to pre-emptively dismiss any attacks that I am anti-vax I am fully vaxed and boosted. But talking about side effects or risks apparently puts one in said camp. Nuance is dead.

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my...

The 30 micrograms of ribonucleic acid in an mRNA vaccine dose get folded into protein and make their way into the lymph nodes in your armpit. They do not “saturate the body”.

Joe Rogan interviews are not a reliable source of medical information. Rogan is a COVID conspiracy theorist of the “just asking questions” variety. For anyone unconvinced about this, and values diversity of opinions in their media diet, the recent episode of Decoding the Gurus is worth a listen.

https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/episode/joe-rogan-ju...

Very defensive response.

I am not making any claims that are unsupported by the CDC's own data.

Just because a response is rare doesn't make it any less true.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my...

The fact the CDC recognizes myocarditis results from infection of vaccination does not support your claim that it is a direct result of "spike protein saturating the body".

It is an immune response, not a direct effect of the protein. If it was a response to the protein, it wouldn't occur primarily after the second dose of Moderna, it would occur with equal likelihood after both first and second doses.

I don't understand what you're defending against. The science proves you wrong.

The inflammatory response is primarily triggered by the [1] spike protein.

"We observed that spike (S) protein potently induces inflammatory cytokines and chemokines including IL-6, IL-1β, TNFα, CXCL1, CXCL2, and CCL2"

I'm curious to see the fuller data set on adolescent males since it does seem initially that moderna may be more likely to trigger this rare myocardial response due to its much higher potency.

The S1 and S2 components of the spike protein linger in the body for up to 12 months. So it would seem that the second dose would be harsher since there is already a reserve of S in the body.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7987013/

Well, yes, the spike protein induces an immune response. That's the entire purpose of using it as an antigen in a vaccine. If you don't see the daylight between that and your original claim that 'saturating the body with spike protein' which gets uptaken in tissue in the heart as metabolic substrate which then results in myocarditis, I don't know what to say.

You misquoted him twice; he said "The spike protein RNA vaccine saturates the body" and clarified he was referring to the response mechanism of the vaccine by saying "the vaccine saturates", which you referred to in the first sentence of the comment I'm replying to. It seems like you two are discussing the same thing, as a third party.

I don't think I'm misrepresenting them even if I paraphrased. The vaccine doesn't saturate the body, and there's no evidence the heart is subject to these side effects due to lipid vesicles being uptaken from circulation because the heart uses them as substrate. Then to not leave any doubt, they cite McCullough on the topic who is way off the rails beyond available evidence.

Your second sentence seems like the most promising path to helpful discussion. It sounds like you're saying the Khan preprint is wrong because of an association with McCullough, but I don't know the name and it doesn't appear in the study (I haven't listened to the podcast.) I'm sure there's more to what you mean by disagreeing with the mechanism the other user proposed.

Nothing appears to be amiss with the Khan preprint, it just doesn't support claims being made.

Perhaps we would be more in agreement if "saturated" was replaced with dispersed or diffused?

No because there isn't evidence myocarditis occurs due to the vaccine acting systemically and getting uptaken by cardiac tissue.

"Moderna's (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine is up to four times more likely to cause inflammation of the heart muscle, a very rare side effect, than its rival vaccine from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N)"

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Well yes, that is a main takeaway from the study in question. Non sequitur to my post though

> The 30 micrograms of ribonucleic acid in an mRNA vaccine dose get folded into protein and make their way into the lymph nodes in your armpit. They do not “saturate the body”.

I am pro-vaccine, but this isn't really true.

Note that we have animal studies that used luciferase mRNA to see where mRNA medications are transported and translated. There's some systemic transport no matter what, even with IM administration.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624045/

> Intravenous and intraperitoneal and to a lesser extent intramuscular and intratracheal deliveries led to trafficking of mRNA-LNPs systemically resulting in active translation of the mRNA in the liver for 1–4 days.

https://i.imgur.com/YSCFUQS.png

Yes, the muscle in your arm does a lot of the production of the spike protein, and a lot of that spike protein is captured by the lymph nodes in your armpit. But decent chunk of the mRNA goes to your liver, too, and a big amount of spike protein circulates systemically no matter where it's produced.

It saturates the body to such a degree that the "worst" vaccine in the "worst" age group creates an extra 30 cases of myocarditis per million people?

Edit: 100 per million, thanks for the correction. 0.01% of people.

Technically, 100.

That's still very safe, but it's good to be accurate.

That is the same age group that is at lowest risk from the actual virus, though - the cost:benefit for that demographic is the most interesting.

(I am an under 30yo male who is fully vaccinated, just to be clear)

Peter McCullough's take flies in the face of the weight of subject matter experts and published evidence on the topic. If you like podcast format, perhaps listen to ZDoggMD's dissection of McCullough's interview https://zdoggmd.com/peter-mccullough/

Could puberty and high testestorone have something to do with it? Just making a guess because it's specifically higher in 16-24 group.

I've heard one semi plausible theory so far.. but take it with a huge grain of salt because of the theorists reputation.

Peter McCullough in his recent Joe Rogan interview suggested it may be due to the mRNA vaccines nano lipids. He said the heart, brain, and reproductive organs are "sponges" for the nano lipids. Thus these organs are getting exposed to more spike proteins than else where in the body. The damage from spike proteins is otherwise well documented.

2 questions we can use to vet this: 1. are there significant cardiovascular differences between genders, and 2. Do we see significantly more myocarditis in Pfizer vs astrazeneca.

Other than that I don't have enough medical knowledge to dispute it, but no one seems to have picked up on it in the medical community.

If it's not something that can be quickly dismissed on first principles then I think it would an interesting area to study.

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