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> A lot of people joke that his artwork is sub-par and the music is repetitive, but frankly... the integration of all three into a single product / series of games is pretty amazing.

I'm reminded of a Tim Minchin quote where he said he isn't funny enough to be a comedian or gifted enough to be a musician, but he can be the funniest musician and the most musical comedian out there.

There's something to be said for having an interesting combination of skills even if you don't maximize any one of them.

I recently finished writing a giant book. I wrote it all, hand drew the illustrations, and typeset the whole thing. I'm not a particularly talented artist or designer, but I have the unique property of deeply understanding the source material. So even if the illustrations and layout aren't the best, they are informed by the source material in ways an outsourced designer wouldn't be able to do. When I draw a little diagram, I know which boxes to make biggest because the concepts they represent are the most complex. When I choose to split a snippet of source code across pages, I know where to split the code to be least disruptive.

Zun is a particularly cool example.

There are plenty of excellent artists out there. If your video games inspire them, you can have a large fan-base who can contribute fanworks... from (amateur) manga/comics and other online works, to fan art, and maybe even some professionals remixing your works (most noticeably in the music world for Zun, where professionals / dedicated musicians take his speedy tunes and add a more subtle flair to it)

The "Bad Apple" fanwork is a great example of how the fan community interacted with Zun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkgK8eUdpAo). The shadow art was its own thing (though clearly based on Zun's characters / Touhou characters), but the song itself was a remix based from an earlier game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKyPkQ-_ug)... and professional level remixes to Bad Apple have entered the world.

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So Zun was "good enough" at art, music, and programming... but also did a great job at inspiring and leading the Touhou community / fanbase.

In many ways, the "game designer as commmunity leader" model is apparent. Braid, Touhou, Minecraft, and even Factorio all had community leaders and fan-growth that was superbly done.

The music / art of the Touhou community though really elevates that particular community into true artistry. Both of the classic kind (just straight up good drawings / music being made), as well as of the programming / interactive kind.

And the Touhou fanbase is really big both in Japan and outside. For music alone there are probably hundreds of artists and groups and there are lots of fan comics, videos, games, memes... the rabbit hole (no pun intended) goes really deep.

The definition of art is somewhat hard to find, but to me an artist excels in his/her field. The trick here is to see value, a painting or song has only consumption value, it produces nothing except feelings that in turn can materialize.

Programming is the weave of everything digital, like the matrix glyphs it can describe all, be all, modify all. It rules all crafts by an infinite amount. As a single programmer in a 3D multiplayer system, you become god.

The truly amazing game makers like Pixel f.ex (Cave Story) are not incredible because they can make graphics, music and code. But because they actually manage to release code that works while being good at graphics and music. The rare skill is programming, not drawing or music.

99% of programmers don't take resposibility for their creations long term, including John Carmack and Tim Sweeney!

So it's a trifecta: Be creative (discover things nobody did before), manage to release live products that work, take responsibility = work on your own.

The most underrated skill in human history is this kind of programming, eventually it will become the only skill worth having until all energy has depleted. Then we're back to sticks, stones and cave drawings! :D

Full stack ownership of a game is what can make it truly good art imo.

AAA games have art in them (the assets made by individuals), but the entire pieces are less art than product after being ground to completion by an org chart.

> Full stack ownership of a game is what can make it truly good art imo.

Good is not quite the nuance I'm trying to say here. Final Fantasy VII remakes are "good art" and good enough programming, probably top-quality music as well despite being made by a giant organization.

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Integration is probably the thing I'm trying to discuss, which is "good" in its own way. The Touhou games are probably the best example of that, but maybe that's a bit niche.

Supergiant Game's "Bastion" was probably the best "integration" I've seen in more recent years of art / music / sound / programming. The way the narrator responded to my button-pushes and actions was downright creepy at times (creepy in a good way though)

AAA games like Red Dead Redemption, try to accomplish the same thing but its just not quite as tight or as well done. I give them props for the effort (and getting further than most other AAA titles), but its just really difficult to compete with the level of integration that smaller teams can provide.

I think Arkane, Looking Glass, and iOi have come pretty close. This is coming from an experienced oil painter and novice programmer.

I strongly disagree with programming being a “higher” art than music or painting.

As for DIY game devs, I really enjoyed Tom Happ’s Axiom Verge series. The artwork and level design, especially. I’ve seen a couple interviews where he kind of brushes off the praise for the musical aspect - and I agree. I think it’s the weakest part of his games. The music fits incredibly well, but it feels a lot like someone noodling on a keyboard until they reach the appropriate level of spookiness.

But ultimately, all the components work well together, and the games feel like one person’s mad vision.

I don't think I agree that programming is a "higher" art form (despite wording my reply in the above manner, I'm pretty neutral to the parent post). But I do think it is wonderful when art+music+programming combine into a singular cohesive product.