The idea that this is Foxconn's responsibility, or that Apple is "unable" to proactively monitor what happens at these plants is just BS.
I just don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable to universally accepted principles of basic human decency.
Are they, though?
I don't see people claiming that "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" is totally fine if the plant makes Samsung or off-brand smartphones. What I'm seeing is a luxury brand on the defensive because their customer base learned that the workers making Apple's luxury products not only have been enduring "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" but also tainted food that causes mass health issues.
What really boggles the mind is that these sub-human working conditions seem to cause downtime in their plants, which ultimately means it costs them money. But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings.
As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. The problem is that inspections are often faked.
That makes no sense. I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees.
And also, are you really trying to argue that Apple is able to verify and guarantee that their luxury consumer electronics products leave the plant meeting tight quality control requirements but somehow it's impossible to ensure that the same employees who met those quality control specs will have worm-free meals?
All the factory has to do is clean things up for the inspection and make sure the employees know they’ll be fired for speaking up.
Also, consider that these conditions existed in only some of the dormitories. To find them they would have needed to inspect them all.
For example any scheduled inspection by Apple would be met with a safe and well running facility - and the moment they leave it all returns back to normal. Apple, like other companies, do random inspections - and that's when you find all of the infractions, but these companies are pretty clued in to when a random inspection might occur since there are telltale signs for that (the factories will also pay off anyone they need in order to get advance notice, e.g drivers, airport staff, hotels you name it.)
So it's a constant battle of trying to uncover and rectify the supplier problems. As a simple anecdote for the production staff to have normal working hours we would need to pay them as if they worked an 18 hour day on the requirement that they used the rest of the day for rest and leisure - because otherwise they'd just go to other factories to get in additional hours. The workers are not there for a good time, they're there for the cash.
Despite the Apple hate on HN (HN has a big thing for double-standards), Apple do a very good job about this and unlike many companies Apple publish their own dirty laundry in their supplier responsibility report. As someone rightly noted earlier: You hear about the Apple ones, you barely hear anything from non-American companies, but let me assure you - their conditions are far worse and in many cases simply dangerous and not suitable for humans.1
1. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electro...
How many times has Foxconn been in the news for the same sort of issues? Is Apple not aware of that? Is Apple unable to find a supplier who can meet their needs?
You say that Apple does a good job, they publish reports and so on. I say bullshit. Apple accepts the status quo and does the bare minimum to make people think they care. Same as Nike and everyone else.
Sure, you don't get the same reports from some companies. That just means that they are not trying to blow as much smoke up your ass.
If Apple or anyone else was serious about doing something they would. In 2007, the tech press was all aglow with the wonder that Apple could command a production change a month before shipping https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-ove...
Now poor Apple is helpless and at the mercy of their suppliers?
You want to hear a solution? Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and who ever start a joint venture assembly. They choose and hire the management. They have representatives at the factory.
The reason they do not is because they do not want to pay what it costs to be done right. If they wanted to, they could. They are smart and powerful people, any excuses are just bullshit.
No, it's the drama you want, and you want it to be loud and about specific brands that you don't personally like.
That's why I don't bother.
So does that leverage and squeezing not ultimately impact these laborer's at the bottom of the food chain
Is Apple, like all companies that outsource ultimately aware of this but sees it as necessary to their profit margin, Yes.
Would any other company in Apple's position do the same, almost certainly.
You're advocating a particular ethical framework, but I'm not sure what the justification is. I'd be interested in hearing an argument for why others should adopt it.
Treating human beings decently is the ethical point here
Why should others adopt it? For me it is enough to treat others decently, and by that I can only use my own standards (and I do not have a flush toilet in my house, but there is running water to wash with).
But perhaps some people need another reason. Perhaps they should ask their priest?
Perhaps they should consider how they wish to be treated themselves, and what goes around comes around.
But for me: Just be decent. Remember the Golden Rule: Do not be a dick
The problem is Indian or Chinese people valuing each other so low they do that to each other. The american overlord, they tell him yes yes and will print all the pretty pictures and stamped documents he required. So Apple, Foxconn, I dont think we should even care, they dabble in a specific environment: what is India doing for its taxpayers ?
That is unfair.
The USA in the nineteenth century had similar problems, as did England.
It is a side effect of rapid economic development, methinks. Time will tell but I think working conditions will improve.
They are not that flash in England or the USA either
Saying "it's the cost of modernizing" may risk making people believe it's the cost of modernizing, rather than a side effect to quickly correct so you have a rise of the middle class criss-crossing the rise of the factories, rather than the explosion of a slave caste and no one in the domestic market able to buy the output of the production. I think for instance it's not normal India trails China, it's probably explainable by many facts, but it's still nearly as shocking as China trailing France.
What is the state doing ffs.
In addition the subcontractor could do the same, and nobody would have to check any of the unpleasant stuff. The brand name could just hide behind people who hide behind non-brands (who really shops at Foxxconn?).
The fact is in the modern world we have these things called brands that people associate with positive or negative vibes, and we use them because we really don't have enough attention to dig deeply. The brand is an investment into making a positive vibe that hopefully is a true signal. If it's not, people are misled and they end up buying things that they didn't want (though GDP doesn't suffer, that's another story).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Combined with Apple's astronomical financial leverage and obvious capability to prevent situations like this from ever occurring again.
For instance, if the packets you sent over the Internet to post your comment traveled over equipment manufactured in unsafe conditions, you are acting unethically.
That's where this attempt to flip responsibility fails.