Hacker News Reader

Comment by telxosser | Hacker News Reader

I just don't agree really. That analogy is pretty absurd.

It is hugely powerful to not get caught up in all this nonsense at the individual level.

I know so much more than what I knew in early January 2021 because I spend my time reading books, doing tutorials or taking MOOCS instead of wasting my time watching TikTok. I literally don't even know what the user interface to TikTok looks like and never will.

If anything the exact problem is people are giving up agency at the individual level. As if there is absolutely no choice other than to be helplessly addicted to your phone. That implies then that it is not your fault that you check your phone or txt while driving.

View on HN

It's both. Yes it is good that you spent early 2021 not mindlessly scrolling TikTok, and yes it is true that as individuals we do have some agency in the matter.

But, it is also true that in this 'attention economy' the large companies are hiring psychologists to try to break your agency, to try to take it away from you. And they are doing a pretty damn good job, and aren't going to stop any time soon. "Stolen" in the title of the OP is not really an exaggeration.

>It is hugely powerful to not get caught up in all this nonsense at the individual level.

I mostly agree with this, but in the same token think we should be aware of "this nonsense".

>As if there is absolutely no choice other than to be helplessly addicted to your phone.

Don't think anyone is saying that. Think what we are saying is more along the lines of something like 'the problem is systemic, essentially baked into the business model of advertising/marketing, and it should be addressed'

> “Stolen" in the title of the OP is not really an exaggeration.

Theft can happen only when it’s involuntary.

> the problem is systemic, essentially baked into the business model of advertising/marketing, and it should be addressed

That’s not the root cause. It is just a choke point for blame.

The root cause is the choice people make, which we’ve established exists. If people want help, there are plenty of mitigations for social media, like alternative front ends.

>Theft can happen only when it’s involuntary.

I suppose I am arguing that it is involuntary. Social media addiction is a real thing. "Stolen attention" seems to fit here. But I guess the line does get blurry. When a true heroin addict shoots up, is that completely voluntary or completely involuntary? Probably neither.

>The root cause is the choice people make, which we’ve established exists. If people want help, there are plenty of mitigations for social media, like alternative front ends.

So the root cause is not that these companies are being manipulative for financial gain, the cause is that users aren't choosing alternative front ends to social media (or some other mitigations). Hmm... Not sure I agree.

Yes, it is true users have some sort of agency or choice in the matter, but that doesn't mean these large companies aren't still doing the sneaky things that we know they are. Even you including the word "mitigation" in your response speaks to the fact that the problem is deeper than the users choice. Mitigation is secondary.

Also, I think this is a great discussion that is well worth having. The 'root cause' of all of this... (I tend to think it's just greed.)

> When a true heroin addict shoots up, is that completely voluntary or completely involuntary? Probably neither.

The heroin addict doesn't get to blame someone else for their choices; it's a bit like jumping from a building - it's not voluntary to be falling (i.e. being subject to gravity). You had a choice to not jump from the building.

The mitigation is to turn the parachute on your back on, so _continuing_ to be falling is voluntary.

So, in the moment, it may not be voluntary - but in the long term, it certainly is. And the _responsibility_, that most certainly lies with the user in this case.

> but that doesn't mean these large companies aren't still doing the sneaky things that we know they are

It's not like they're hiding anything from the user so it's not sneaky at all. The effects of social media are pretty public on the Internet.

And what are they doing, exactly? Responding to HTTP requests over the network and serving content as the user requests them via algorithms.

Not much different than any other addictive thing in life. Sure, you can try to compare the addictiveness, but it's still just a spectrum.

I have been learning new things since I started _making_ videos on TikTok.

Ironically, making highly digestible content for social media is something that requires a certain amount of sustained attention.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com