This comment is unpopular, because it hits too close to the heart of home for many of you sitting in your comfortable home wasting energy on heat and A/C while complaining about environmental consumption of bitcoin.
This comment is unpopular, because it hits too close to the heart of home for many of you sitting in your comfortable home wasting energy on heat and A/C while complaining about environmental consumption of bitcoin.
This isn't a cogent argument. Yes, overheating or overcooling houses is also bad. If AI training used as much electricity as Ireland I'd be critical of that too.
>This isn't a cogent argument. Yes, overheating or overcooling houses is also bad. If AI training used as much electricity as Ireland I'd be critical of that too.
It's a cogent argument to point out the hypocrisy. If you want to argue we should create a watt-police or ensure externalities of power consumption are better accounted for, that's a different argument.
Well I disagree here. It provides benefit for many people. The example I continually use for me personally is buying precious metals with <30 min clearing without paying credit card fees (and I really hate funding credit card companies anyway). But people in Argentina also using it for reasons just to have efficient way of receiving dollar for free-lance work.
I think we're in agreement we would do well to be as efficient as we can with our resources. It would be great to find a way to eliminate externalities of energy production/consumption.
I do think it has some small benefits like transferring money where there are no other options. But the vast majority of the network's use is in purely financial use and justified by HODLers and libertarian types. Its existence is largely a downside on its own even without the huge energy costs.
Y'all told me crypto was bad and now I'm bad for dumping crypto to buy precious metals? The litecoin transaction I do uses $0.02 of electricity. $0.02. Ever left a lightbulb on longer than you should have? Spent $0.02 in gas to go to the bank to get fiat? Just can't win. I don't really like holding dollars as the government constantly inflates them, and I see them as part of a system that bombs innocent children abroad and locks up foreign nationals without even a trial. I see it as irresponsible not to store emergency wealth _somewhere_. I'm committed to not become a public charge and I wouldn't resort to begging from family unless there were no other choice and even then I'd probably rather just starve
Are you gonna be there to personally bail out my whole family if we lose our jobs? Can you withstand that burden? Maybe that makes me evil. At least I don't stay awake at night wondering if I can buy more diapers and milk if I get axed at work tomorrow.
>Well, it's pretty simple really - I'm not a big fan of financialisation.
How do you see as buying precious metals with proceeds of labor being financialization? Do you think the $0.02 financial service cost from the transaction as really being larger than the financial cost of if I had went to the bank and got a big pile of cash, or if I had used a credit card? No, the "financialization" has lessened. The wikipedia article I read states it's a period where debt-to-equity ratios increase and financial services account for increasing share of national income. Explain how buying precious metals without debt is financialization. I can't even get a loan against personal custody of precious metals, if anything it _decreases_ my access to "financialization."
>bitcoin is doing anything good if it is literally just "wall street but with massive energy costs, less regulation, and full of even more scammers and financially illiterate".
I don't think that's the advantage of bitcoin, even if you describe it that way. The advantage of bitcoin is decentralization and lack of centralized trust -- packaged into electronic form.
- what real world utility is realised by the introduction of a new system?
- what real world cost is realised?
- how does it shape people's behaviour?
Note that none of these is a criticism of the individuals engaging with the system. It's about the impact of the system itself. Now from where I stand this is how bitcoin plays out:
- negative utility: high electricity and CO2 cost
- negative utility: labour does not provide material benefit (financialised)
- negative behaviour: increased cultural propagation of scamming, speculation and other results of financialisation
- mixed behaviour: cultural hub of libertarianism
- mixed utility: provides a space for unregulated financial transactions. Negative: scams, blackmail, other financial crimes. Positive: paying financially isolated and unbanked people. Mixed: purchase of contraband.
Which is to say, the ratio of positive to negative, especially weighting the impact of increased CO2 emissions (which is a potentially existential threat in the medium term and a mere catastrophic threat in the short term), is pretty shockingly bad.
And thus brings us to the reason why crypto is an ever popular debate on HN. At the end of the day even if you find crypto morally bad, there's no universal shock to the conscious for using crypto like there would be for murder/rape/theft. Some see crypto as sinner and other see it as saint. You seem to acknowledge a little of everything but weigh different factors differently than others. At the end of the day given the impossibility of banning crypto and the number of people on both sides, I just don't see it going away without a superior replacement filling the spot. For me this is a great thing, but for many it's going to be a point of contention and outrage for a long time. I will go one respecting the choice for some not to use it and hopefully others will peacefully implore us to stop if they find it wrong, but I think it's going to take violence and an oppressive enforcement mechanism to force me and many others to stop. Good luck.
I understand this is all opinion on both sides. I would add this opnion risks overlooking, say, Argentinian free-lancers who are paid in crypto because the system surrounding them makes it untenable to use conventional banking. Or the jewler buying precious metals with litecoin to avoid credit card fees. Escaping a failed economic system like refugees in Venezuela receiving crypto remittance definitely seems like a systemic improvement for them.
I guess you could call using it for transaction to buy precious metal speculative, but even in that system the actual crypto transaction isn't speculative as it merely acts as a unit of trade to buy an underlying "speculative" investment (personally I don't consider PMs speculative investment but rather store of value that I don't desire the volatility to appreciate or depreciate.)
>its primary cost is massive amounts of CO2
So you hate electricity? Join the Amish.
>mass murders are financially beneficial to funeral directors
But this isn't true. The people killed have to die sometime, their death is assured to the funeral directors. Them living longer just means they're more likely to reproduce and generate a new human who in turn dies someday. Funeral directors are worse off by mass murder. I think this excellent allegory points out your economic short-sightedness. Funeral directors want people to live highly reproductive lives, not short lives.
> Of course it can be individually beneficial - mass murders
Now we have entered clown world where mass murder is the example given. How many mass murders actually happened specifically and only because of the existance of crypto? The only example even close I'm aware of is Ross Ulbricht's alleged murder plot that was never even prosecuted thus we have no idea if it was true.
>advocating for something immoral because it benefits them financially
So basically anyone advocating for using dollars? I see crypto like a hammer, it's a tool that can be used morally, immorraly, or merely in a morally neutral fashion.
>Which is about all I expect from libertarians, to be fair.
Is this supposed to be some sort of ad-hominem attack?
>Which is about all I expect from libertarians
I have a hard time making sweeping generalizations about morality based on one's political choice.
I did include the unbanked and productive manufacturing (which you neglected to mention until now - are you a jeweler?) in examples of positive use, in my utility list. But you have to assess a technology based on its overall effect.
> So you hate electricity? Join the Amish.
Totally specious.
> Funeral directors want people to live highly reproductive lives, not short lives.
This is overly reductive. Clearly a short term boost in business is a financial boon for funeral directors, as it would be for any business.
> How many mass murders actually happened specifically and only because of the existance of crypto?
Uh, what? Maybe I should just give up trying to explain my point to you if a simple analogy is beyond your comprehension.
> I see crypto like a hammer, it's a tool that can be used morally, immorraly, or merely in a morally neutral fashion.
You can look at actual use to determine the effect of something. Not many people are using F15s for anything else but killing people, so it's fair to call weapons of war broadly immoral.
> Is this supposed to be some sort of ad-hominem attack?
"greed is good" and "unregulated capitalism is the ideal" are libertarian tenets, so yes, I think it's fair to say that they're selfishly self interested. So you consider yourself a libertarian?
> I have a hard time making sweeping generalizations about morality based on one's political choice.
Given that politics is an expression of values, I really don't. If somebody were to say "I don't like Jews and that's why I'm a nazi" (this is an argument from absurdity, BTW) I could reasonably call them a bad person. They also wouldn't need to say the first part because its implicit in the identification. Libertarianism is fundamentally about "fuck you got mine", which I find to be immoral.
I don't see that as true. A short term boost followed by long term bust in many scenarios is not good for business. See payday loans. Mass murder is a payday loan to funeral directors, you get a little bit early now but a big loss in the long run from drop in reproductivity rate (and ultimately, long-run death rate) of the populace.
>Totally specious.
Here's an idea, if you don't like using electricity don't use. There's no single "right" way to use electricity. Your beef again seems to be with externalities of electricity use. So you probably hate video games and AI too, albeit proportionately less on CO2 output. And you probably hate those in cold climates keeping their houses near 70 in the winter even more than bitcoin.
> So you consider yourself a libertarian?
The attribution you made suggesting my libertarianism was your statement "Which is about all I expect from libertarians, to be fair." This is your words, not mine, directly replying to me. Ad hominem doesn't require the label to actually be accurate. I've never called myself a libertarian, although I'm sure some might label me that way. I call myself an anarchist but that's really the only political label I give to myself.
But really this is all your self aggrandization about your moral superiority to libertarians, because in reality tons of people, even liberals or socialists and even authoritarians (North Korea government) use crypto. Crypto isn't exclusive to a subset of libertarians.
>You can look at actual use to determine the effect of something. Not many people are using F15s for anything else but killing people, so it's fair to call weapons of war broadly immoral.
Nah, 'weapons of war' aren't immoral. They're tools. Used to defend, or to aggress. Or maybe in my case, to put some holes in paper for enjoyment. Ever shot an SKS or an AK? Good fun. Even shot one at ISIS once, never felt bad about it but every once in awhile have a laugh at the fact I survived. They can be used for good or bad.
Yes I look at the F15 and see it like a hammer too. If aggressive fighter enters and bombs innocent people, I see it as fair game for that fighter getting blown out of the sky. The F15 isn't immoral, its use on the innocent is. Killing in self defense isn't immoral. Although sure the government and individuals in it have used the F15 immorally. Actually it's probably easier to use an F15 in a moral fashion than a larger bomber not as well suited for defensive fighting, although neither are immoral at face value.
>"greed is good" and "unregulated capitalism is the ideal" are libertarian tenets
Was selfishness the subject at hand? I don't see selfishness as bad, I see coercive selfishness as bad. Selfishly building a farm so you can make money with the effect others around you are fed is at least neutral and probably good. Using coercion to rob your neighbor is bad.
>I did include the unbanked and productive manufacturing (which you neglected to mention until now - are you a jeweler?)
I mentioned it because that's a large percentage of use of gold (going off memory here, but I think it's like 40%), for instance. Were you not aware of this? You know people use precious metals for different purposes right? For instance most platinum / palladium buyers are actually industrial rather than those perhaps seeking to hold on to it until manufacturers need it more and thus yielding a profit and providing market liquidity.
> But you have to assess a technology based on its overall effect
And your assessment is 'totally specious.'
> If somebody were to say "I don't like Jews and that's why I'm a nazi"
Not a fan of Nazis, but if someone simply calls themselves a Nazi and doesn't hurt any Jews or aggress on anyone then I call them a whacko not a bad person.
>Libertarianism is fundamentally about "fuck you got mine", which I find to be immoral.
This encompasses so much stupidity and naivety I don't know where to start. But I think you know more about libertarians than you give off, and you understand if we're (we're as in you an me, not we as in aforementioned libertarians) dumbing things down to your level socialism or democracy can be about "fuck you got mine" by those who vote to redistribute funds from the others to themselves, telling those who pay the tax "fuck you, got mine from the tax you paid."
Litecoin processes about 100k txs a day and miners make about 1M$ per day. So that comes to about 10$ in electricity per tx if we assume miners break even and ignore hardware depreciation. While this overestimates electricity costs, it's not off by orders of magnitude. This is the way that people attribute bitcoin's electricity costs to transactions.
Your $0.02 is presumably just your tx fee.
On the other hand, Bitcoin provides no meaningful benefit to society compared to other currency. The only real benefits of Bitcoin are that it makes ransomware easier to accomplish (which is bad for most people) and that it has made some people a lot of money due to its pyramid scheme qualities (again, bad for most people).
One big one to me is buying precious metals online with <30 minute clearing time without paying credit card fees. Literally nothing else I can find accomplishes that; I didn't even set out to use crypto for that purpose it just happened to be the best way to do it in my circumstance.
>lives are meaningfully improved by increasing the temperature to closer to 70-72.
Well I could say "nuh uh" and then you could say about bitcoin "nuh uh" but then we'd both merely be saying the other's use of energy consumption is bad. If you have an issue with making sure every bit of electricity is only used for necessities, why don't you go out and say that or explain how you want to make sure externalities are paid for by power consumers. Singling out bitcoin by people living near room temperature with aid of heating/cooling is just hypocrisy.
That is unfortunately not the world we live in though, and probably never will be due to political reasons.
Decentralization and censorship resistance does not exist in the fiat world. Ask some greek people if Bitcoin was useful to buy food.
Because it's easy for you to open a bank account and have you money secured, it doesn't mean that other people have this luxury.