Ask HN: Should there be more alternatives to high school?

I dropped out of high school with a 0.5 GPA, I now own a sizable percentage of a software company valued at a life changing amount of money. I cannot emphasize enough: Do not do what I did.

It has been an uphill battle for 14 years. At every single turn there have been disadvantages, challenges, and closed doors because of the choices I made as a teenager. Highschool is terrible for many of us. Hell, being a child is god awful. Apply yourself anyway. The bare minimum to get a STEM degree at a state school is fine. Don't worry about perfection, just passing is enough if that helps you stay sane. If you really like programming and hacking on electronics (and you're half decent at it), your grades will never matter after you land your first job. Put something cool on github and the right people will hire you for that first position anyway. At that point you get paid to hack on things all day long. It's a blast. Highly recommended.

Everything is ten times harder if you don't hit that minimum standard though. If I could go back in time I would check those boxes.

Final thought: Money has diminishing returns. I use it as a proxy for success above, and it's nice, but I would easily trade places with many of my employees. They work half the hours and spend more time doing the kind of work I enjoy. Once you have enough to live comfortably, optimize for something other than money.

Don’t focus on society-wide changes or what options you think should exist. Instead find a path that works for you.

You can learn on your own from books and online resources, find a mentor if you’re lucky. You can simply stop attending school and homeschool if your parents will cooperate. High school students generally can take classes at universities and community colleges. You can find all kinds of resources once you manage to free yourself from compulsory school attendance.

A high school diploma has some value in the job market, but you can get a diploma from community college or by examination in some states, you can look into that.

High school students generally can take classes at universities

Guy fails high school math, but yes, have him ditch school, drive his mom's car to a university and audit college calculus.

Consider the possibility that students can fail a class in school for reasons other than not understanding the subject.

I failed (got an F grade) in high school math for two years, because of bad teachers and chaotic classrooms. Eventually I just stopped going to class, guaranteeing a failing grade regardless of whether I understood math. At the same time I got through two years of math classes (trig and calculus) at a nearby university. I did that on advice from my high school counselor, who then gave me math credit because she understood the difference between high school grades and learning.

I guess your university math class didn't cover Bayesian likelihood.

Nice way to announce rationalist in the house.

Statistics and probability came later, you're right.

Basic understanding of statistics informs us that aggregate results do not predict individual outcomes. The aggregate poor math performance of American high school students does not predict what any individual may achieve (or fail to achieve). The overall poor math grades and test scores among American high school students could have any number of causes. Overwhelmed or disengaged teachers and a one size fits all curriculum probably have something to do with it.

My comment was intended to get the original poster to think about taking control over their education rather than expecting school to do that for them. If high school math classes aren't working then look into alternatives. The OP already indicated they care about learning math, but aren't necessarily motivated to achieve good grades to get into one of the "best universities."

Basic understanding of statistics informs us that aggregate results do not predict individual outcomes.

Actually, that's precisely what it does.

I'm not sure what you're arguing but it seems like some form of ecological fallacy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

I'm not even sure what statistics has to do with the OP's question or my responses. It only came up because you implied I don't understand "Bayesian likelihood" in your ad hominem.

My point is that a student can get a poor math grade or struggle in high school for reasons other than lack of ability or interest in math. One way to test that is to try learning math in a different environment (the personal example I gave). If a student is failing math one hypothesis is they are not able to understand math, or aren't applying themselves. Another hypothesis is that the teaching environment is less than ideal -- something Bayesian likelihood might support.

I'm not even sure what statistics has to do with the OP's question

Well, that was obvious. What's more likely? That OP is failing math because it's beneath him, or because he's got more in common with the *prior* million disaffected dropouts?

I see. I don’t really care about or think it’s relevant why the OP is struggling with math. My comments were suggesting alternatives to high school math classes that may have better outcomes. I took the OP at their word that they want to learn high school level math, which is I think obviously a different goal than getting a good grade in math class.

What? No it doesn't.

My life expectancy is 85. Does that mean I'm going to die at 85? Probably not. It means that, of the people of my age, gender, and race, the current statistically-based projections are that half of them will die by 85, and half won't. How does that predict the outcome of any individual?

We both know this argument wasn't referring to point estimates, but I am happy to engage in the pedantry of oneupsmanship. That's a big part of HN.

No, we don't both know that. If you didn't mean that, you worded your comment badly, because what I took from it is exactly what I responded to. (And, no thanks for assuming that I was responding to something I knew wasn't your point. That's against the site guidelines of charitable assumptions.)

Would you care to try stating your argument again?

By this I mean something similar to a trade school

There's nothing more similar to a trade school than... a trade school.

Are you at high school? I quit at 16 and started doing things I like. Then later I went to University and got a job through there. My best coder friends dropped out of same university to get a good education and then got great tech jobs. //

My advice, if you can interact with people on this site, can get your Karma to 50 through upvotes and being part of discussions, then you will be able to teach yourself and go in your direction faster than what school can do for you.

> I quit at 16 and started doing things I like. Then later I went to University and got a job through there.

This is easier (and more affordable) in some states and countries than others. CA, for instance, has a really affordable (or used to, my numbers may be out of date) community college system. Getting your associates is a great way to start when going back to university later on because it, often, covers your general degree requirements so when you go to university you can focus on your major courses (or major courses + a handful of supporting courses, but no extraneous English, history, or other courses since they're already covered). It also "locks you in", so to speak. If you start college and drop out there's usually a time limit before they discard your course credits (10 years in many places), having an associates means there is no effective time limit for those courses, you have the degree.

And then you have to look at university costs in different states. GA, for instance, is very cheap. I had many classmates at Georgia Tech from PA because the cost for a 4-year degree with out of state tuition sat somewhere between 1 and 2 years of their in-state tuition (present numbers probably different, but I know GA is still inexpensive compared to many other states). If you're patient, go to a state with good and affordable schools, work for a year, then go to college paying in-state tuition.

> By this I mean something similar to a trade school.

I'm guessing you mean a trade school for topics of interest to you that normally would not be covered in a trade school. Schools exist because there are enough people who would find the curriculum of interest and enough teachers to teach them. Because of this, not all topics that might be of interest to you can be taught in a school or in the order you would prefer the most. I think you're entering the territory of self-directed learning (https://medium.com/wondr-blog/self-learning-why-its-essentia...) which is very important and valuable lifelong skill to develop and cultivate.

Check out resources like MIT OpenCourseWare, participating in programming projects on github where you can collaborate with like-minded people on a project you find mutually beneficial, or Youtube. If you take a look at classes or applications of the topics you are being taught further down the road of what you're exploring, it might give some more relevance to them. Youtube has a lot of great videos on a lot of niche, practical topics. You can subscribe the channels to keep getting an ongoing update from someone on topics of interest to them. Another important thing to keep in mind is that topics of interest to you may not be in vogue now, but were more relevant in the past before the next best thing took over. Oftentimes, you can find material of interest in older books and back catalogues which explored them in much more detail. You might also find that some of community college classes are more practical or focused on teaching what you need as a professional because they are more focused on getting people with a wider variety of backgrounds up-to-speed on a topic, and know less of what classes have been taken or will be taken next by their students.

> I constantly wonder where they find the motivation to do this.

The motivation can simply be chasing opportunities over immediate interests. A lot of people like to learn with other people who can help them with what is being taught so that they don't get stuck along the way without anyone to rely on for help.

Leaving your options open oftentimes means going after opportunities because they are there and have a clearer progression towards things that might be of interest or value over the things of genuine interest now. It's a very personalized decision to balance chasing opportunities over things of greater interest, and both are equally reasonable. Depending on what genuinely interests you, if you want to make a career out of it or incorporate those things in the things you work on, then following a more defined path that others are more familiar with is going to open opportunities to others to want you to work on those things of interests.