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Comment by herpderperator | Hacker News Reader

> Let's say that you're starting Apache Tomcat. You have to dig into the tomcat startup scripts and figure out where, if anywhere, it writes the pid file to disk so that you can later use it to determine if the process is running or not.

https://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-8.5-doc/windows-service-how...

The commandline argument is --PidFile and --LogPath. Most, if not all, programs allow you to customise this. It should never be a guessing game, especially when you are the one creating the init file, therefore you are the one in control of the running program.

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Those arguments are for the Windows service and don't appear to have a corresponding Linux option. On the Linux side, if things are still done the same way as they were in the past, you had to set CATALINA_PID before starting the java process.

It's still a guessing game, though, even with CATALINA_PID. It is entirely possible for Java to crash (something which RC scripts do not handle, at all) and another java process starting up which happens to be assigned the same process id as the dead java process. This can not happen with systemd units because each service unit is its own Linux cgroup and it can tell which processes belong to the service.

You could just run every daemon in its own jail. You don't need to chroot (unless you want to), and don't need to do any jail specific network config (unless you want to), but you could use the jail name to ensure no more than one tomcat (or tomcat-config) process, and you could use the jail name/id to capture process tree to kill it without ambiguity.

With respect to servers that crash, approaches differ, but you could use an off the shelf, single purpose daemon respawner, or you could change the whole system, or you could endeavor to not have crashing servers, such that if it crashes, it's worth a human taking a look.

Sure, you can do all that and set it up manually. I'd love to be corrected here but last I checked this was not done automatically in any BSD. Systemd recognizes this is so common that it does it automatically for every service using the Linux equivalent (cgroups). IMO now that we have these tools, every sysadmin is always going to want to use cgroups/jails for every service all the time and never want to use pidfiles because pidfiles are tremendously broken, error-prone and racy.

Even with systemd one may need to deal with pid files for services with more than one process.

Systemd has heuristics to detect the main process to send the kill signal or detect a crash, but it can guess wrong. Telling it the pid file location makes things reliable.

Plus creation of a pid file serves as a synchronization point that systemd uses to know that the process is ready. The latter is useful when the service does not support systemd native API for state transition notifications.

And the best thing is that even if systemd has to be told about pid files, one never needs to deal with stalled files or pid reuse. Systemd automatically removes them on process shutdown.

A pid file is never actually reliable though. Since the supervised process has control over it, it can write any number it wants in there and trick the service manager into signaling the wrong process. As long as the process is not root and can't escape its own cgroup, systemd's pid detection is going to be less error-prone in basically every case.

I can't stress this enough. Pid files are really bad. The fact that we used to have to use them is a flaw in the OS design. Using them for startup notification is also a hack in and of itself. The kernel has enough information to fully track lifecycle of these processes without writing information into files that are inherently prone to race conditions, and we now have better APIs to expose this information, so we shouldn't need to use these hacks anymore. I don't think there is any Unix-like system left that considers the old forking daemon style to be a good idea, and systemd's handling of pidfiles is really just a legacy compatibility thing.

How about Apache, Nginx, pulseaudio or ldapd?

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