Abuse and the developing human brain (2000) | Hacker News Reader

Abuse and the developing human brain (2000)

dana.org

63 pointssoftwaredoug82 comments

I experienced extreme physical abuse when I was 3 (my babysitter used to shot put me across the living room when I wouldn't take naps.)

A lot of what is in this article, I can attest to firsthand. I didn't realize I had been abused until I was 15, as I had stifled the memory, and though I remembered it, it never "clicked" as abuse before then. I've had a host of mental health problems that have led to me being diagnosed ADHD/bi-polar in my early teens, with the latter being renegged as too hasty of a diagnosis.

Today, I can't get a diagnosis, as I don't have enough symptoms in each category to fulfill any one (BPD vs DID vs PTSD). It feels like I have some kind of grab-bag illness of all three. What's more, the medicinal options available to me are awful, and cause me a whole host of different problems, both physical and mental.

What I'm trying to say is that - as someone dealing with these problems - it still feels like there's a long way to go before I have any real options towards improving my mental health. I'm very hopeful for the increasing popularity of THC/CBD for the treatment of trauma, as I've found that to work wonders for stopping/avoiding psychosis. I've communicated this too all my doctors, but it's never been taken seriously. I am "prone to drug abuse" after all.

Apologies if this comes off as trying to e-diagnose you, but may want to look into “Complex PTSD” (ICD-11 F62.0) if you haven’t.

“Complex PTSD is a new disorder category describing a symptom profile that can arise after exposure to a single traumatic stressor, but that typically follows severe stressors of a prolonged nature or multiple or repeated adverse events from which separation is not possible (e.g., exposure to genocide campaigns, childhood sexual abuse, child soldiering, severe domestic violence, torture, or slavery).”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799241/

You could probably benefit from a far better care team that has an understanding of trauma and which sees medication not as a means of making the problems go away, but as a useful yet optional tool that may help you bring healing (ie allows you to comfortably explore trauma and your trauma responses in therapy) to deeply troubling events that happened in your life (ie typically with lower but clinically meaningful doses, say, of SSRIs). Ketamine with therapy (optionally with an adjunct like a low dose SSRI) also has also appeared to looks be a platform for doing such work, too.

I wonder how this works, when the abuse is portrayed as normalised discipline? Kids dont know what is right or wrong, so if you get punishment, physical and mental and accept it for the result of your actions, how does that work when the kid is an adult and doesnt agree with the way they were brought up, when they look back at their childhood?

I'd say Laws can also cause alot of cognitive dissonance depending on how you were brought up. Another factor not considered is the diet and lifestyle today is different to what it was just 20/30years ago or longer. Those hormonal differences in people will also affect their behaviour and attitudes.

You get people who end up on https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/ decades later.

Yeah so called experts should come with warnings, they could be about to open Pandora's box and there isnt any going back once that happens!

"I'd say Laws can also cause alot of cognitive dissonance depending on how you were brought up."

Or after realizing that they are only enforced against some people.

This totally, many Govt employees feel they are above the law. I've seen nurses, teachers, soldiers and police all dish out their own form of justice. I think its a Govt employee mindset, that they are untouchable because they "protect & serve" the country and the population and therefore can do what they like.

As someone who went through exactly this, it fucks you up pretty thoroughly.

Mid 30s and have been seeing a trauma therapist for almost four years now, and don’t suspect I’ll stop anytime soon.

There is a path to healing, but it’s a long and difficult one.

And as another sibling comment pointed out, C-PTSD is the generalized result. Not recommended.

trauma can come from societal causes, such as laws. See "Is COVID-19 an adverse childhood experience (ACE): Implications for screening for primary care"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7306718/

Abuse as a child generally annihilates your understanding of safety, safe places, and safe people before you ever understand that abuse was bad. In fact, growing up not understanding that people in positions of authority (institutional or interpersonal) don’t get to just violate you is often one of the problems with people who were abused as children.

I think some cultures are just totally out of whack though, the British Victorian attitude of children should be seen and not heard is just a cover for abuse, and there are people today still using this, I see it frequently on social media, mothers do it alot, its like they want kids but not the hassle. However noone really sits all women down and explain this is how your life will change, you dont see this at school, you dont see this anywhere, and the same goes for blokes. Noone ever sits you down so to speak and say hey, this is the consequences of your actions if you take this path.

As a human race we just keep screwing up making the same mistakes time and time again, which works for corrupt institutions, because we end up having to validate their existence in one form or another.

I grew up believing my own abuse was normal and that it was my fault I wasn’t good enough. By the standards of my community, it wasn’t abusive at all. (Spare the rod, spoil the child.)

It fucked me up for a very long time.

It wasn’t until I was 34 and 18 months into treatment for bipolar disorder that I discovered where so much of my self-hatred came from.

No one around me knew how damaged I was because I had to hide it to survive.

Some people classify "spanking" as abuse however which we need to be clear about.

I apologize for being misleading. It was a significant amount of emotional abuse, not so much physical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse

I agree. The important thing for me was my parents expressing their sadness about what they were about to do. They didn't like to do it but viewed it as right thing to do. They never did it out of anger. It's not "abuse" then because the child understands why what is happening to them is happening.

> I wonder how this works, when the abuse is portrayed as normalised discipline?

I don't think it'd make much difference. Abusers fill the lives of their victims with fear and pain and those can cause profound physical changes to a person's body and how it functions. The constant stress of living like that for long periods of time has surprisingly far reaching effects. If you're curious, I recommend reading "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk

I work at an ayahuasca retreat center in Peru, and childhood abuse is one of the more common things people come here to work on. Often people will arrive with rather "generic" intentions for their stay (e.g. anxiety or depression) and will often discover after a couple ceremonies that childhood wounds had created broken patterns that have governed their whole lives. It's often shocking, but once the realization is there the healing work can begin. IMO, the traumas don't have to be permanent, as the intro to the article says. Ayahuasca isn't necessary (though I do think it's quite a boon to this work!), therapy can be sufficient for many. Don't be afraid to get help.

Are functional junkies welcome where you work? Asking for a friend.

Most definitely. Past drug use and related traumas are another biggy. But of course you wouldn't be able to use while here (while on the diet), and likely should take a break from any/all substances prior to arriving. (This is not solely due to the possibility of contraindications with ayhuasaca's MAOI effects, but it's a big reason)

[Mumbling about the lack of contact details in your profile]

(I'm quite far away from Peru myself, but others might not be)

nihuerao.com is the center's website. Compared to other centers, there are very few "tourists" that come here that are just interested in trying out aya; much more catered to long-term dieters than the average center. It's very traditional Shipibo, with a big focus on "master plant" diets (additional plants taken along with ayahuasca for their healing/teaching abilities), and tends on the stricter side.

If anyone has experienced sexual abuse, I highly recommend "The courage to be me", by Dr Nina Burrowes.

It's free to read online: https://ninaburrowes.com/books/the-courage-to-be-me/

...and available as a physical book.

This wonderful book is sadly underappreciated - please tell everyone about it!

> If we assume that lots of attention, licking, and grooming are the natural state of affairs and that lower levels of attention are a form of neglect, we can use this model to explore some of the biological consequences of neglect or abuse in children. Low rates of maternal attention decrease the production of thyroid hormone by the rat pups. This, in turn, decreases serotonin in the hippocampus and affects the development of receptors for the stress hormone glucocorticoid. Since corticosterone, one of our primary stress hormones, is kept in check by a complicated feedback mechanism that depends on these same stress hormone receptors, their inadequate development increases the risk of an excessive stress hormone response to adversity. For this and certain other reasons, lack of maternal attention predisposes the animals to have a heightened level of fear and a heightened adrenaline response. Some of the consequences of this are altered metabolism and suppressed immune and inﬂammatory responses, neuronal irritability, and enhanced susceptibility to seizures.

This is consistent with what I've read in the book Healing Developmental Trauma by Laurence Heller and Aline Lapierre:

“When, for a child, this need-satisfaction cycle is significantly interrupted, healthy development is disturbed, and the environmental failure triggers both tension and bracing in the musculature and activation and imbalances in the nervous system and biochemistry—all of which sets the stage for symptoms and disease. When basic needs are not met and the protest to get those needs met is unsuccessful, children come to feel that something is wrong with their needs; they cannot know that it is their environment that is not responding adequately. Therefore, they internalize caregiver failures, experiencing them as their own personal failures. Reacting to their caregivers’ failure to meet their needs, children come to feel various degrees of anger, shame, guilt, and physiological collapse. Tragically, to the degree that there is chronic lack of attunement to their core needs, children do not learn to attune to the needs within themselves. When basic needs are consistently left unsatisfied, the need-satisfaction cycle is interrupted, and nervous system dysregulation and identity distortions are set in motion that often have a lifelong negative impact.”

> Published: October 1, 2000

Not knocking the article, but I'd love to see something a ouch more recent. Our understanding of PTSD, in particular, has changed a bit in the past 20+ years.

I grew up in a hypocritical society where on paper you are free to choose your own beliefs, but in reality education is dominated by ancient catholic values. As a schoolkid you feel like little more than a prisoner. I wonder how much it contributes to shaping kids personalities, and how much it contributes to the area's absurdly low birthrate.

And this article from a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29920920 [The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longitudinal study]

I can't say I know the stats for prevalence of abuse in the general community, but the prevalence in 12 step programs (I've been going since '98), is crazy. Anywhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of members in the meetings I've been to have suffered some form of abuse as children. I suffered psychological abuse, a lot of which was considered a form of parenting at the time (70's) in my community. I also had exposure to porn (I found dad's stash) as a pre-pubescent. Today I'm an addict in recovery with clinical diagnoses for depression and ADD. Living a good life today, but still attending meetings and seeing a psychologist.

I hope internet regulation is improved to stop child sexual abuse online. Things like requiring SMS verification to play a video game are a good first step, but anyone can get a burner number for $5. It should be more tied to a cryptographic government ID in a way that you can register to multiple vendors' games without any of them being able to imitate you. Then we can start to have true accountability for people who say bad things to kids online.

You want government sponsored MFA for video games? That's insane.

How is it insane to want basic accountability for your actions as an adult in a public place?

Because this isn't the case anywhere in a public space. Where do you go that you're required to be identified by the government?

Public spaces have cameras and / or are safeguarded by the presence of other people who will usually at the very least report any heinous crime that takes place.

Throughout childhood, I was subjected to serious physical abuse by my peers, as well as serious verbal bullying/psychological abuse.

I stood up to a long term bully with a below-the-belt comment, which led to extremely violent abuse from peers. One of the last incidents was on the property of a town police officer, before high school started (around 12 yrs old). The police officer stood by while I was horribly beat up (punched full blast to my balls) by a scumbag with a group of people behind him.

The physical abuse included acute trauma from repeated impacts via punches and full strength kicks to my head. Saw stars every time I was hit, like those old Batman comics.

I entered high school as a broken child with cemented learned helplessness. Never the same.

Now homeless and destitute. I became permanently suicidal after grade school, totally afraid of death. Trapped in an unwanted life. Just went homeless yet again last night suddenly. The one shelter here seems like a psyop of sorts: in view of wealthy people, under blinding bright lights. Fodder for the wealthy, like a dystopian plot in popular Netflix shows.

I now suffer from tinnitus and hyperacusis picked up from overexposure. I am a destitute middle aged white male college dropout. Suicidal all of the time. This time going homeless I have no vehicle to sleep in. It's warm here but I am unsheltered. Demoralized, defeated, and hoping to die.

I beg of God to forgive me and grant me peace in the afterlife, whether I am able to complete suicide now or later.

It’s absolutely gut wrenching to read your experience, no one should ever have to go through that. Please if you’re ever having suicidal thoughts speak to a suicide hotline specialist. I almost lost a friend to suicide and he was really helped by talking to non judgmental people who genuinely wanted to help.

Hope you’re doing great, and life gets better.

I just became homeless again last night. Thanks for your thoughtful suggestion.

Just a heads up, suicide hotlines are an absolute joke, especially for those in long-term/drawn out situations like OP’s

They typically result in nothing more than police showing up to your house, carting you off to a place that will end with thousands of dollars of medical bills & no meaningful help.

I’m glad you know somebody who had a positive experience, but it’s really not the norm.

If anyone is reading this comment and needs help, hotlines are absolutely not just a complete joke.

Hotlines do tend to be staffed by volunteers, and there are bound to be circumstances that are not handled as well as they could’ve been. But the opposite is also true.

But if you need help, call.

To the parent comment, some anecdotal opinions are best left unshared. This is one of them.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/suicide-hotline-sil...

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. This neither adds to the discussion nor helps the GP. There's a time and a place, and this thread is not either.

I hope you find the peace in life you are searching for, brother. I love you and wish you success in life.

thank you for your kind words

Hoffman Process is life changing

thanks. it wont cure tinnitus/hyperacusis which has robbed me of my ability to focus on difficult tasks.

I once tried to help an acquaintance find a men’s homeless shelter. We probably called 15 at least but almost all of them deal only with women and children. It’s heartbreaking. Men who are homeless have very little resources compared to other demographics. Please try contacting some organizations where you can volunteer; often times they are filled with good people who would be happy to put you up in their home and help you find your feet. It may feel like all is lost but it never is. Sometimes it’s very difficult if not impossible to believe that but it is true.

thanks for the kind suggestions

not going to try or do anything else again

too many cycles of failure

my only remaining desires are peace, rest, death asap, then nothingness

Don't give up.

The best thing you can do is to get a handle on your past: read about trauma (The Body Keeps the Score, by Bessel Van Der Kolk), and try to connect with a trauma therapist.

Trauma often manifests itself in physical symptoms. There are paths that lead to healing...

There is hope, there are people who will understand, and you deserve it.

death is the ultimate gift, assuming there is no existence beyond our human life

stopped trying to cope years ago, on my way out

Today I read Yasmeena's Choice, by Jean Sasson (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18376565-yasmeena-s-choi...)

There was a girl, Lana, 16 years old. She fought, all the way...

It's horrific, and sobering, and may help you to get a perspective on your troubles.

For a while I've been keeping my eye out for short-circuit approaches that aid in questioning the assumption that "this existence is it", and provide a useful level of signal in circumstances where I'm significantly preoccupied with arbitrary suboptimality and don't really have the opportunity to focus for whatever reason.

For what it's worth, I haven't found anything yet. It seems that the be-convinced-in-ones-own-mind problem requires focused consideration by definition.

Just saying.

For my own part, I have this visceral unease that I don't think will go away until I have absolute (end-to-end, closed-loop) confidence in Something.

That's a rich assumption, perpetuated by those who choose comfy ignorance. The ultimate gift is reason that lets us foresee consequencies without experiencing them. Also, someone who has nothing to lose wouldn't live like that. If I had a terminal stage cancer and one month left, I wouldn't sit and waste time.

Please seek help, suicide is not the answer. Seek help and I pray for you

I can relate to much of this, and will not do you the disservice of trite "thoughts and prayers" or "sorry this happened to you". I will, however, let you know that sometimes it works out despite the pain and misery. You mentioned you're terrified of death yet suicidal; this is completely understandable to me, and I have shared this feeling (still do sometimes) most of my life. It's also what I used to regain what I thought I'd never recover (dignity, self control, and even hope for the future).

What it came down to for me was acknowledging the fear. When the only choice seems like death, and death is too terrifying to even embrace properly, what else in life could be anywhere near as terrifying?

If there is any thing you have not tried for fear of rejection or complication or social exile, now is the time to consider them. When there's no way out, when your back is up against the wall, that is when to fight the hardest.

Good hunting.

I am hoping to complete suicide as my next major move.

> The physical abuse included acute trauma from repeated impacts via punches and full strength kicks to my head. Saw stars every time I was hit, like those old Batman comics.

Laws usually protect adults from such treatment. How come the courtesy not extended to, uh, not-yet-adults especially given the high stakes? One of the loudest political cries in the west(especially, America) is "thinka-da-chillins". Is that an empty virtue signal? I mean people in the US act like a stray nlpple on prime-time TV will scar half the population for life, yet this is something that'll buff out? Neurotypicals are a mystery sometimes :)

I heard that child:child violence is not tolerated any longer, at least not to the same extent as what I experienced decades ago.

Your comment is currently floating at the top of this thread, creating an awesome opportunity for people to reach out to you privately. You have no contact info in your profile! A throwaway email address could be a consideration. Also, where are you located, roughly, say state-wise or so?

Squinting from a very specific angle, I honestly wonder if a self-defense class could be useful here - not predominantly for the mechanical teaching, but from the fact that (if you actually have a good teacher) you integrate what you learn on top of a balanced framework of refined self-control/mastery. Opining very naively, I wonder if the meta-control (you can control your emotions (you are capable (you can defend yourself))) you would achieve via what would amount to unorthodox exposure therapy would present enough of an emotional/logical contextual scaffold of what balanced capability basically looks and feels like that you would be able to just drink that in for a bit and then see where you go from there. Ideally you'd smooth out the bumps with competent psychological support, but this could get you <significant>% of the way there.

> I was subjected to serious physical abuse by my peers, as well as serious verbal bullying/psychological abuse.

Same, we all were, my first school was a special needs school and kids were having all kinds of mental health issues.

> I entered high school as a broken child with cemented learned helplessness. Never the same.

I had the luck to be transfered to a normal elementary school after they tested me thoroughly at age 10. I was a wounded kid, the teacher at that school patched me up.

> Trapped in an unwanted life.

I feel that we all have this to some extent. In all cases, I've noticed that a stoic mindset (and ok sleep combined with ok food) is the only thing that helps.

> I beg of God to forgive me and grant me peace in the afterlife, whether I am able to complete suicide now or later.

I've noticed suicidal ideation comes and goes. Because of that, it'd be a mistake to ever give in IMO. With that said, it seems you need help but I am in Europe. So I am not sure how to give it.

Ask HN: Assuming bubblecheck lives in the US can someone from the US (or a group from the US) help bubblecheck?

Feel free to email me, if you want someone to talk to.

I have been steadily suicidal for a long time and have not completed it.

No help is requested or required.

I am now 100% unsheltered and in survival mode. I didnt sleep last night due to this.

I am charging my phone at a food establishment here. Then I need to decide between unsheltered sleep and use the last of my cash for a rope, which will be a waste since I am scared to face death.

I've bought and discarded complete, 100% planned inert gas setups with regulator, bag, etc, all planned incl ropes to hold my hands down

I've bought and discarded numerous ropes over the years, most suitable for the less common drop hang.

While I do oscillate, it's only between "suicidal ideation daily" and "i am executing on a plan to attempt completion."

I can count the weeks on one hand where I've gone entirely without suicidal thoughts, since decades ago. It's constant, just varies in intensity and highly situational - eg my shelter is gone and I am back contemplating the end

the thing is. I dont want help, I dont really want any more advice or ideas. Prolonging an unwanted life is burdensome to others; now to kind strangers on hn. It's a pattern that I wish to break but unfortunately I will not seek to rebuild a life again.

This really leaves scraping the bottom to survive while avoiding outright suicide plan follow-thru. right now i am stuck trying to decide between unsheltered homelessness in an unwanted life, in pain anyway, and just getting it over with anyway

The fact is, I gave up at age 11. I decided that I would not participate meaningfully in a corrupt society that tolerates abuse and violence. As per the study, leaving these matters unresolved turned out causing me and my loved ones a great deal of pain. When others hurt you, you are responsible for self care unless (and until) civil compensation is sought and awarded. That isn't feasible for children except in egregious cases of intentional harm.

What got me was how the bully increased his ongoing abuse against me once he saw it was hurting me. Behind my back or to my face, "Just teasing you." No, bully, telling me that my parents are garbage, my family is shit, and that I'll grow up to be a serial killer because your abuse hurt me is blatantly malicious. Totally unprovoked multi year bullying, obviously hurting me, no response from teachers -- finally broke me. The truly damaging physical abuse started thereafter. I forgive you, but the damage was extensive, and snowballed into a lifetime of torment inc'h aforementioned extensive physical abuse. I am totally ruined.

The hard reality: it was 100% on me or my family to address my needs to defend against this early on. We are responsible to protect ourselves. You can't expect a school to step up esp when you're in an atheist (non church going fam) in a highly religious/tribal affluent community.

I've gone the other way entirely, self-sabotage and positioning myself to be taken advantage of repeatedly; a theme that plays out consistently, further cementing cynicism about human culture.

Violence in popular culture and justified by national military apparati causes cognitive dissonance in a child who seeks peaceful interactions, but is instead exposed to systemically-condoned violence.

I feel for you. Don't know what to say. Just know there's a human being thinking about you.

Had many of the same experiences, though thank heavens I did not wind up with tinnitus.

Being unsafe in your own house and your own school and your own neighborhood is almost unimaginably difficult. No place to go, no money , no lockable closets or neighbors houses or school programs. I remember it all like it was this afternoon even though it was 50 years ago.

When I was age 11 I decided I would try to survive so I could get the fuck out of my neighborhood and never come back. That was the one counterbalance to my suicidal thoughts that persisted until I was 15. I’m also a college dropout but was able to teach myself programming and to bootstrap a good life.

And the tinnitus. Fuck. It is hard for other people to understand what you’re going through with the chronic conditions, but they just sap the interest in living like nothing else.

My heart is with you, brother.

I've been suicidal most of my life, and it was made way worse from 8 years in jail due to mental health problems. I just got out. I was heading for a homeless shelter, but someone took me in. If I can help you in any way, let me know. Even if you just want to talk. I've been through a lot of the same experiences as you. I got tinnitus too from COVID when I was in jail. My email is on my profile. I will reply.

I’m so sorry, my man. My very best to you.

I always wonder about this re: male genital mutilation. Could it have some long-term psychological impact? Could this be one of the reasons it got selected for (although it remains questionable, I think, whether cultural phenomena really work that way)?

I Googled your term and it appears you are just talking about circumcision.

“Just”. I guess that shows how accepted this kind of mutilation is.

I have read a lot of things that suggest yes, but the nature of measurement (or lack of measurement) of things like infant trauma and subsequent effects seems to stymie any workable conclusions. Personally I received the operation long into adulthood, willingly-ish (most effective treatment for a physical issue I was experiencing) so I am familiar with what it's like to both have and not have the extra nerve clusters and skin. I am pleased with the outcome, but I would never suggest it to anybody else unless they made their own choice.

Powerful:

> If we know that the roots of violence are fertilized by childhood abuse, can we make a long-term commitment to reduce violence by focusing on our children rather than our criminals?

https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/01/l-a-da-gascon-allows-a...

“Even though Tubbs is now 26 Gascón refused to transfer the crime to adult court”

I wonder how minds of DAs like Gascón work

>James Tubbs, who committed the crime in 2014 when he was 17

That's probably what the DA is thinking when making that decision.

Every decision he's made that gets press seems to indicate that his mind is firmly in the realm of "those who commit crimes are the most victimized because of their life circumstances and societal ills" in a Rousseau-esque view of humanity as essentially good until other bad humans make somebody act bad. It's a romantic view that, in my opinion, would only apply if we started humanity from the beginning; it's too late for it, now.

Tubbs will go to the female side of the detention facility, but will remain “in isolation, separated by sight and sound from the other juveniles.”

Reply on news.ycombinator.com