USB Type-C finally shows up in power tools | Hacker News Reader

USB Type-C finally shows up in power tools

xda-developers.com

226 pointswebmobdev151 comments

I wanted to have everything that could use DC power up to 100watt to use USB PD since half a decade ago but adaption has been super slow so I made fpx [1] and sold it in high quantities to essentially subsidize the cost for my own use.

I now have roughly 30 devices that have been converted to use USB-C chargers. I can power them all with a single high quality adapter. I can also power them with power banks, or my car! It’s heaven. Having a few adapters means, I always have spares if one of them breaks.

To date, I have converted everything from Ryobi battery chargers, shavers, Vinyl cutters and hair straighteners to vacuum cleaner, label printer, old laptops, standing desks, vacuum sealers and work lights.

[1]: https://fpx.oxplot.com

This is incredibly cool information.

I’ve dreamed of this for quite some time (though not as long as you). Do you have info about how you converted the shavers, chargers, etc?

I would like to know more (and subscribe to your newsletter).

Usually, devices have empty space inside that can be used to fit the fpx board. I then drill some holes to expose the port, mount the board inside with bolts and nuts and wire things up. Sometimes I need to 3D print an enclosure, sometimes I just shrink wrap it inline with the power cord for simplicity.

See my sibling comments for when fpx board alone isn't enough.

How do you attach it / keep it attached on a device?

It requires drilling holes and mounting it with bolts/nuts or screws.

Sometimes I have to add extra dc-dc converter to get the right voltage or a constant current converter for lithium-io battery chargers.

Could you expand on DC to DC adapters? Are you using these just in cases where the voltage needed is not available with the usb-c powerblock or otherwise out of range of usb-c options?

Ye, say you need 18V instead of 20V. A step down does the trick there. In other cases such as Li-ion chargers, they expect a constant current supply which fpx board doesn't do. So a DC-DC module with max. current adjustment needs to be added in-between to accommodate.

In short, it does take some understanding of how the device you're modding works and what power draw characteristics it has, before converting it to use USB-C power.

This is such a cool project, it's almost indecent.

I think it would be a force multiplier to also showcase the "ecosystem" (e.g. 3D printed adapters, mounting points, suitable DCDCs for specific applications, etc).

Even just "caveat implementor" links would show the possibilities and help people (like me) go from "that's cool but I'll struggle to trivially make it relevant to my devices" to "huh, all I need is to use something like this STL and use a scrap of strip board like this and mount it here with that DCDC, huh".

Good idea! I’ll try to do a video.

To be honest (and I guess kids these days would call me "cheugy" for it!), personally, I don't generally like videos if a some static content would do.

Would you and Bunnie Huang please teach a Master Class together? I have no idea what that would look like but it would be wonderful. I'd pay 200-400 for 4-8hrs of content.

I have had good results replacing the rectangular thinkpad charging port with USBC configured for 20V delivery. The boards are so small they fit within the footprint of the port, and sugru works well to hold things in place and provide a nice rubber finish. The last piece is using a third party usbc magnetic connector.

This is the coolest project/product I've seen lately. Great idea to program the module via the website (+works offline!).

For less ambitious hobbyist projects, there are USB type C decoy modules on Aliexpress for around $1 USD each, in 9V, 12V, 15V and 20V versions. Not programmable, but should do the work.

I am currently (as a hobby-style activity) learning guts of the USB Power Delivery standard and found an incredible (and fully open-source) tool: USB-C explorer, https://www.tindie.com/products/reclaimerlabs/usb-c-explorer...

Basically, you attach the board to any USB port and it will show capabilities (voltage and amperage) on a tiny OLED display. And since the firmware is open-source, it's possible to play around and test a lot of what-ifs: https://github.com/ReclaimerLabs/USB-C-Explorer

I am not engaged with the project other than a very happy user.

In other news, the latest USB PD spec allows to pass up to 48V@5A=240W power.

That's pretty cool, and I've often wanted such a thing, but $80 is steep. How much of that detection ability would you be able to get in software on a laptop with a USB-C port?

This kind of information is usually deep inside EC (embedded controller) and what they expose to the host system is limited. So, maybe it's possible, but I am not aware of a practical option.

Update: it seems that Linux gives some stats about it: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1351186/how-to-debug-usb-c-p...

This looks fantastic. Does anyone know of an opposite tool? One that identifies as a source and works out the demands of a sink?

The price is fine, and even just this one would save me loads of debugging efforts at home.

The opposite tool exists, it's awesome (on paper, anyway), but I could not afford it ($1200). Meet Acroname USBHub3c Pro: https://acroname.com/store/programmable-industrial-power-del...

I use this device for debugging, it's invaluable and cheap:

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2017/review-satechi-usb-ty...

This is awesome, thank you

That's an awesome device, and I want one, but it also passed into my head: Shouldn't I be able to get this information from my laptop? I would expect that there's some way to probe the USB-C chip to find out what power mode it is in and what power modes it could select. I'd love to see that as a tutorial.

Man, I wish there was a program on linux/mac/windows that would show this. (I sell USB-C cables, and like to verify what the cables compatibility is before claiming it can do xyz.)

I have a poor understanding of electrical engineering so I am not sure this would actually work. But I've wondered if one could make a fairly cheap gadget for turning a decent USB-PD supply into a somewhat useful hobbyist variable voltage DC power supply.

Especially with USB-PD 3.1 which has an adjustable voltage supply mode [1] so you are not constrained to only a handful of power profiles. I think in theory you could offer 5V, 9V, and 15-48V.

It would be cool because it would be much easier to carry (keep in your backpack) and I imagine cheaper than a benchtop power supply so long as you have access to a capable USB-C charger. But I'm not sure what you'd be missing out on versus a proper benchtop.

[1] https://www.usb.org/usb-charger-pd

You might be better off getting a fixed power profile from the brick and regulating down to your desired voltage separately. While it's possible the brick will be well regulated, it's likely to have some noise and output voltage variability. Even for a hobbyist, the DC supply should be clean and well regulated, or you might be stuck debugging your hobby design only to realize it was a power issue all along.

A small board/box with a DC to DC regulator, knob, and display, could still be quite a bit smaller than a big bench supply, and provide reasonable performance. USB-C in (at a fixed power profile) to an output from a variable buck supply, for example.

Like Op, I also have been tinkering with USB-C PD and found another hobbyist tool on Tindie that does exactly like you describe! You can specify the voltage and current needed, and it'll then make sure you get that power from a compatible charger.

This is the one I got a while ago it and it works great: https://www.tindie.com/products/clarahobbs/pd-buddy-sink/ though there's several other options out there

Oh that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing.

maybe something like this?

https://eclecti.cc/hardware/tiny-usb-type-c-adjustable-power...

It may be also be possible to interact with the PD negotiation protocol directly and pretend to be a device / power supply with Luna from croudsupply once released

https://www.crowdsupply.com/great-scott-gadgets/luna

It looks cool but I haven't got one to mess with yet

I am loving usb-c and it's great to see it's increasing in power delivery capability. 240W in a tiny, cheap connector is amazing. As a hobby I am currently upgrading all my old/favorite electronics to usb-c:

- Upgrading a 2009 Apple wireless keyboard to li-ion plus usb-c charging. A 14500 li-ion cell is 3.7C, and exactly the same size as a AA cell. You can get charging/protection circuits[1] and voltage regulators[2] for nothing online.

- Upgrading mice, headphones, etc from micro-usb to usb-c. Usually I solder in a usb-c connector upside down in place of micro-usb, add the correct resistors (there are CC or charge configuration pins). If you don't need data, you want these connectors with only the required pins and not more[3] or breakout connectors if you have space[4]. If anyone knows a breakout connector that has CC resistors installed I'd love to buy it. Or for gluing in place instead of soldering, this connector[5] is the only one I have found of any type with the correct CC resistors already installed.

- Using usb-c for powering small prototype things instead of using a benchtop power supply. You can get power modules configured to one voltage[6], or adjustable ones[7]

- Fixing janky usb-c powered electronics that only work with a usb a-c cable. Usually they are missing charge configuration resistors to get 5V. For 5V up to 3.0A, you can use simply using these resistors instead of usb PD. Usually you have to replace the connector with one that exposes the CC pins.

For all of above, this device[8] is invaluable for troubleshooting although this one looks like it has more capabilities similar to the usb-c explorer[9]. And might as well get a usb-c soldering iron too[10]. And this GaN power brick which is tiny[11]. It's enough for an intel macbook under light loads.

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002953903622.html

[2] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32813195533.html

[3] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32966491026.html

[4] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001335550637.html

[5] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002449606066.html

[6] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001668143510.html

[7] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002196188312.html

[8] https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2017/review-satechi-usb-ty...

[9] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32968303350.html

[10] https://pine64.com/product/pinecil-smart-mini-portable-solde...

[11] https://us.anker.com/pages/ankernanoii

This is an honest question: As a European having been to the US and experienced using the power connectors you have, I can't help but immediately wonder why do they design the brick like that? The brick looks quite heavy, so will it actually be possible to use in a wall outlet, or will it, due to the flat pins, fall to the floor? If I put it in a wall outlet wouldn't it definitely block both ports if there are two? (In Europe and elsewhere, the pins are round, thus something connected wouldn't bend out of the socket. Obviously "wall warts" are a pleague here too, but I have never experienced one leaving the socket.)

(Maybe I'm sensitive since I was literally shocked after just a couple of days working in a US office, simply connecting a charger under my desk when it sort of bent half way out. I was really surprised how simple it was to get exposed during normal use.)

In North America if the outlets are relatively new and in good shape there are springs inside that hold the plug in so things don't fall off. With older outlets the springs wear out/loosen and stuff can easily fall out, I've seen the plugs where the prongs are bent slightly outward (flared) so that they hold in the plug even in worn outlets. Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true.

> Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true.

Can't you put it into the upper socket, upside down? Most bricks do not have grounding, where the third pin would prevent that (or do they in NA?).

Why does the orientation matter if the end result is the same? My point is your suggestion is no better than OPs, so who cares which way the brick points?

If the brick's plug is polarized it matters.

Though if it is polarized, it should be three-prong one, to physically prevent connecting it the other way.

But as Germans and their Schuko have shown, it doesn't really matter ;)

US polarized plugs have the neutral pin physically bigger than the line pin. They don't need the third prong to make it one-way, that's only needed for conductive-cased items to have a ground connection.

Nope, the neutral prong is wider on polarized plugs. Nearly all two-prong plugs are polarized, it's just stuff like transformers or soldering irons that aren't.

> Why does the orientation matter

So it doesn't cover the bottom port with it's mass.

> if the end result is the same?

It is not; the difference is, that you could connect another brick to the bottom port.

Sometimes you can but other times it isn't feasible because the mass of the brick in that configuration isn't pushing against the wall and is instead actively pulling the plugs out of the receptacle.

Normally they stay in place well enough from the clamping force that the receptacle's contacts apply to the prongs.

Sometimes that doesn't work well with older receptacles. Usually I can solve that by squeezing the prongs a bit closer together.

Here's a picture of a North American household receptacle's guts, if you want to see how the springs work [0].

[0] https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/dsc03649.jpg

Adapters like this tend to stay in the outlet fine, as long as your outlets aren't really old. (See also Apple's chargers. They don't come with the extension cord by default, just the "duckbill")

But, the ports thing is true - you have to put them in the bottom receptacle, and you can't have two of them in the same outlet.

> See also Apple's chargers. They don't come with the extension cord by default, just the "duckbill"

This seems to be also local-specific; In Europe, the box contains both the extension cord and the "duckbill".

Also, do to the pins have holes in them? To safe on metal costs? Or do some outlets have things that will help hold the plug in?

The hole is (1) a detent that improves the socket’s grip on the pin, and (2) a way to lock the plug to prevent use.

My understanding is that for a long time now modern sockets don't use the holes for detent and instead just rely on friction. The current ANSI/NEMA standard says that: "The hole in flat blade is optional, and it is intended for manufacturing purposes only. However if used it must be located as per dimensions shown above"

Some interesting discussion on this topic here: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/11495/nema-5...

Wrong on both accounts. Technology Connections spent a while trying to figure this one out and did a fairly decent video: https://youtu.be/udNXMAflbU8

the tl;dw is "They're for manufacturing purposes" -- Alignment for when you're injection molding around them. Any other use is entirely secondary. NEMA sockets don't have any mechanism to hold onto the detent.

Heavy equipment often has a lock through designated holes in the plug. But usually not wall warts.

Nope. That hole is, similarly, only for manufacturing positioning. It's also potentially dangerous to attempt to thru-plug lock out a device: An unsuspecting individual could jam it in anyway and suddenly potentially have the other half of a phase going through them if a receptacle is loose enough or they jam the pins in.

Under OSHA 1910.147(c)(5)(ii), lockout devices must be unique:

> Lockout devices and tagout devices shall be singularly identified; shall be the only devices(s) used for controlling energy; shall not be used for other purposes; and shall meet the following requirements:

Under OSHA 1910.147(c)(5)(ii)(C)(1), LOTO must be done such that a pair of bolt cutters alone would not simply bypass the lockout:

> Lockout devices. Lockout devices shall be substantial enough to prevent removal without the use of excessive force or unusual techniques, such as with the use of bolt cutters or other metal cutting tools.

McMaster-Carr offers only a single key-in-place LOTO for NEMA plugs, specifically 5-15 which clamps around the tines. This is a secondary use of the holes used for manufacturing but does not stop someone from giving a good solid tug, which can happen.

All other OSHA-compliant LOTO systems [encapsulate the full plug](https://www.mcmaster.com/loto-(lockout//electrical-plug-lock... or otherwise [bind to the body of the plug](http://lockoutmanufacturer.com/Pneumatic-Plug-Lockout3.html) in the case of circular connectors.

Note that OSHA LOTO rules do not stop someone from chopping the end off and putting a new connector on. They are intended to provide the broadest safety in the most common of situations.

Your McMaster-Carr link seems to be pretty good evidence that such devices exist.

FWIW I'd read c1 as stating that a lockout device need not be resistant to bolt cutters, as that would qualify as "excessive force or unusual techniques".

Sure, but that was aftermarket, not a design consideration.

It's not just ridiculously-sized power bricks designed this way... do a Google image search for wifi extender and be amazed! Had trouble finding one with a cord.

Indeed, living in a 60 year old house, outlets wear out. Also there are switched outlets that are controlled by a wall switch. Often a duplex outlet will have one switched and one un-switched socket, so you can only use one of them.

I consider replacing worn outlets to be just part of maintaining a house.

Swell, now make the battery formats universal instead of trying to lock users into the manufacturer's tools and batteries.

This! I wish a hardware hacker with more time than me would create a universal battery pack & set of 3d printable adapters that can connect said battery pack to any power tool.

I'm working on a proof of concept for this. I've put together a few adapters using the connector shell and contacts from dead batteries to plug into a modified DeWalt battery, so I've got the power supply side of it figured out. That's the easy part though... I don't have experience modeling for 3D printing, or access to a 3d printer, so that's going to take some work. And pretty much all lithium tool batteries have extra contacts for thermal sensor and some form of communication with the battery's PCB.

So far the driving force for this project has been an occasional need to run older tools with discontinued/unavailable (usually NiCad) batteries for short periods of time in a relatively controlled test environment, so I haven't yet bothered with the thermal protection circuit (which the tools may not have originally supported). In order to actually use the tools as tools I'll need to have some kind of controller in the adapter to monitor the battery charge level and temperature to make sure the battery isn't being overdischarged. This is handled by a built-in controller in modern tools but I haven't tested how they interoperate with onboard PCBs in different batteries.

Side note: I've been surprised learning about how much technology is in modern battery-operated power tools. There's a circuit board in the handle of pretty much every drill that communicates with the battery and trigger and runs the motor. A lot of them are potted in epoxy but sometimes I've spotted an Atmel chip in there.

Replacing old NiCads with a lion power pack is a cool idea. It would definitely give new life to old portable electronics, esp test equipment.

You can buy (I am using them now) adapters so you can use a Makita battery in a Ryobi tool. The idea of battery teams is ridiculous, team <color> is ... I can't even. With the adapter, I can pickup a Ryobi specialty here or there. They make them for other combinations but I haven't used them. I have a Ryobi battery from a refurb tool purchase the combo set was cheaper than the single tool w/o battery. Homedepot confuses the hell out of me.

That would take a lawsuit or a powerful battery manufacturing consortium to create a standard and convince DeWalt, Ryobi, Makita, etc. of the value.

Right now vendor lock in to batteries (that have no guarantee of being available in 4 years when the battery inevitably dies) just makes too much money.

There is actually a consortium like this, but unfortunately most of the brands involved are pretty niche. The only two I'd ever buy from it are Mafell and Metabo.

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Wow it's awesome Metabo and Mafell use the same battery. I'll probably buy some Metabo cordless tools just because of this comment. (Been planning on upgrading some corded tools.)

There a new standard called USB Programmable Power Supply which allows devices to specify exactly what voltage they desire in 10mV increments. I have started getting adapters for all my electronics (e.g. label printer) so I can standardise on one kind of power supply. Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V.

> Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V.

The issue there is that PD 1.0 was 5/12/20 and then 2.0 was 5/9/15/20. So you can guarantee support for everything except 12, basically.

Making 12v optional is not one of their better decisions.

I’ve been thinking about getting such adapter cables, but I got a little bit of a sour note after searching desperately for a 24v one, only to find out that’s not part of the spec…

If history has told us anything, once everyone adopts a new standard port, it's time for someone to make a new standard.

Anyone remember Micro USB?: https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization...

USB C has a lot going for it that will hopefully make it last a bit longer. It's loaded with 24 pins, small, and reversable making it flexible in physical aspects and on the protocol side it opts for a "negotiations first" mindset instead of mandating what modes made sense when it was made. Between the two of these categories the need to scrap the entire connector to do something new is much lower now.

In comparison micro-b had 4 pins, latches, and wasn't reversible. Better than before but it's easy to see why that didn't last very long! Eventually USB C will hit that point to but it's built with a bit more planning on being a "more than USB" interface in mind from the get go.

Wasn't micro-B supposed to have things going for it to make it last longer than the earlier mini-B? Funny how that worked out.

USB3 support hacked onto the micro connectors was not so great. There is also a lot of inconsistency in the shape of the retention latches so that some cables nearly rip out the socket.

Agreed and more. To claim we're churning through solutions is absurd, just off the wall perposterous. USB Micro was introduced in 2007, pretty much as a respin of the physical USB Mini connector- introduced in 2000. USB Micro is pretty much technology from 2000, with a couple small connector fixes. Whether we want to accept USB Micro as pretty much essentially 21 year old legal-drinking-age-in-any-country or only 14 year old tech, this connector has been around for a long long long long time, and in 2010, when it was "standardized" was a pretty obvious sensible choice with little on the horizon.

The big characterization I'd make between USB Micro and USB-C (2014) is that USB Micro was designed for one specific task: connecting 5W power (expanded (unofficially?) to 11W) and USB2.0. USB-C is a much more abstract connector, with gobs of general purpose data & a huge range of power ranges. For data there's two pairs of highspeed differential lanes (so, 8 pins), plus some other lines, for power there's way more amps (5A) & scalable voltage (really scalable with USB EP's 48V) meaning tons of juice. These are all opt-in for use. There's a very flexible power delivery range, there's lanes designed for general high speed connection use not just USB. There were upfront designs for how to run multiple protocols, not just USB, over the connector. With USB4 there's packet level sharing, so net bandwidth can be shared in more interesting mixes than 50/50 or to many destinations at once. USB-C can do just about anything. We can keep changing our uses of it to do whatever.

It's almost hard to imagine what else we might possibly want. Intel's mobile chip's onboard thunderbolt/USB-C ports offer 40 Gbps system-to-system connectivity, while desktops are still slowly marching towards 2.5Gbit ethernet. 10Gbit connectivity is still semi exotic to anyone but hardcore compute enthusiasts, but this connector has proven itself capable of way way more already, at a clearly mass-market price point.

If there's one innovation I would like to see from USB-C and USB in general, it'd be longer connections. I'd love to see a 10Gbit USB4.x mode that works over a 6m cable, for example. I don't think the connector has much to do with the range difficulties faced by modern, high speed USB. And similarly I don't see much push to create a higher-lane count connector, but that's another possible place where USB-C proves less-than-ideal long term.

All of those usb specs are quite young and none have really lasted. Compared to other connectors that people may know:

- RJ45/8P8C was standardised in 1987

- the 3.5mm audio jack in 1979

- the PCI express slot from 2003

These are all still in use today. People expect to change connectors maybe twice in a lifetime, not every decade.

This is a brilliant illustration of survivor bias.

I sometimes wish I hadn't thinned my cable collection in the late teens, I could show you fifteen connectors which haven't lasted as long as, say, Micro-B.

I'd love to have something new & interesting to look forward to. It'd be so neat. I really want a fast, simple, low cost, decent power alternative, that isn't a huge jumble of old legacy specs.

Even USB4, which I love, still has dedicated old USB2 wires running around, because it's just too pre-modern to encapsulate adequately. This fact is a shot across your bow: even though USB-C is from 2014, it subsumes the previous connector. It's backward connectively compatible. The RJ45 & TRS jacks you cite are so primitive, so simple, so single-minded that of course they had no competition. There was so little to compete over, to adapt to, to grow into. A different implementation would have been irrelevant. Except, oh, even TRS/3.5mm audio had to evolve & grow to become TRRS, to add a mic channel: a case where even your immutable forever connectors aren't.

You're right that the time-scale isn't long enough to make USB-C the obvious forever connector, that the time-scales talked so far aren't that long. But digital connective technology isn't that old. We didn't have anything before, and Micro-B basically served & would keep serving, but we want more. I feel like there's an obvious huge colossal truth batting at you & you're ignoring the enormity of how clear, deliberate, & sequential this evolution has been. The fact that USB-C emerged out of the previous connector feels to me like further evidence that this is part of one continuum, that your greivance that connectors can only change once or twice is missing the clear upfront truth of the matter.

And now we're here. We spent 30 years going from crap at consumer digital systems to great, and I have a hard time seeing this as anything but the semi-final destination for us. I don't see good change as likely or probable in quite a long long long time. Perhaps lifetimes. USB-C is the final destination of mainstream computing, as far as it looks, and I merely wish it wouldn't last as many lifetimes as it seems probable to.

> I don't see good change as likely or probable in quite a long long long time. Perhaps lifetimes. USB-C is the final destination of mainstream computing, as far as it looks, and I merely wish it wouldn't last as many lifetimes as it seems probable to.

We’re already well on our way to removing connectors and using Qi/WiFi/Bluetooth. I bet we’ll see phones without connectors soon.

For a big range of uses I think youcre right that wireless can help, that it grows. Chromecasts are great, for example, for letting us work across devices/systems. We dont need hdmi.

For video transmission i dont think there's a viable replacement. wifi6 wave 2 or wifi7 might possibly make wifi good enough. Also Im not expecting wireless power delivery to scale. It's adequate for phones but I dont think it makes sense for even mid sized laptops.

As much as I like to see standardized connectors. USB-C in particular PD is really not robust. I have multiple devices that stopped charging on PD due to broken connectors. They still charge reliably with an USB-A to USB-C cable even with quick charge. On my ThinkPad the socket is too short for most plugs, I wonder how that can happen. It will most probably be the first thing to break on the device too. I already have shaky display port connection over the connector. And now for power tools, I call this planned obsolescence...

I have to agree. It seems ok for small & lightweight devices (ahem, phones..), but I would like something bigger and more rugged for larger devices.

Another issue is I can't seem to find good cables. Most of the cables I have seem too big and bulky with respect to the receptacle, working as strong long levers.. I feel like I have to be extra careful around connected USB-C cables to avoid damage by knocking something.

Weirdly enough the best USB-C cable I have yet is the charging cable that came with Sennheiser Momentum (3?). It's actually quite thin, flexible, and doesn't have a ton of bulk around the connector. I've used it regularly for charging my phone, headphones, and also for soldering.

I think we're up for a revision because it needs some kind of breakaway feature. At work we keep seeing laptops with broken ports because someone tripped over the charging USB-C cable and instead of it popping out, the lateral force just breaks the port. Now I'm super paranoid about it and miss the magsafe connector. My Air just has USB-C and I think that decision may have been a step backwards in some ways.

Otherwise its excellent and probably will last a long time, but for charging laptops, its a little concerning.

The new Pro's bring back the MagSafe port btw and its SO much nicer than the USB-C charger. I've just gotten in a few so far and hadn't really realized how much I missed the MagSafe charging until I got it back

FYI there are magsafe-like tips/plugs that interface with USB-C. I keep meaning to research those some more.

MagSafe USB should really be a thing. But Apple hold the patent on it which first came with MacBook Pro 2006. It will be a few more years before they expire.

I do wish USB starting working on that now though.

https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/motlhn/magnet...

For what it's worth I've broken two usb-c connectors on my laptop, one on a charger and bent one on my phone, and it's always been the cable that's given out. The ports are still like new.

The approach they are taking here is great. The type-C port is down inside the device as part of the battery so should be almost always protected from crap getting in there. So if the charging port fails / gets bent / gunked full of paint / dirt somehow (which seems unlikely anyway), you just buy a new battery (which you would likely need to do anyway eventually). I just hope nobody puts the port on the tool itself, since that could easily get gunked up and be a point of failure.. Good idea these guys went with.

You can just have a USB cover to prevent stuff from getting into the port and cleaning it isn't that hard either. I find USB C much easier to clean then USB micro B.

But I do agree that it's better to prevent then to fix the problem.

Back in 2019 I went on a search for an electric toothbrush with a usb-c charging port. I found one that seemed reasonable and it was from Xiaomi. I've quite enjoyed their phones so gave it a shot and have been pretty happy with it since then. Only downside is that it doesn't charge at all using a macbook charger. I guess it might be due to too much power? Using smaller charging bricks seems to fix it.

I wish the standard had included something on the cable and PD port to signify how much power they were capable of handling. Something like 3 little LEDs (one for less than 50W, two for 50W-100W, etc or something) or even just a number like 50W, 100W, etc. The user experience so far is kinda scary levels of vague.

I have commented it before if the inside of then were color coded like USB 3 is usually blue.

The problem ist that USB-PD allows a lot of different voltages, and chargers have a different max current for each voltage. Many newer chargers are even programmable, where the source can request arbitrary voltages and currents.

Power supplies typically have supported voltages and currents printed on them, but in my experience the easiest way to figure out if it works is to just try it.

I think fixed-voltage chargers are supposed to all do 3 amps max for any voltage below their top voltage. If that's wrong let me know.

I don't know what the rules are for programmable supplies.

That's not correct. A 30W charger might support 3A at 5V and 9V, but only 2A at 15V and only 1.5A at 20V.

You're right. I had it a bit wrong.

What I should have said is if 3A at a standard voltage is within the charger's watt rating, then the charger has to support at least 3A at that voltage.

A charger has a top mandated voltage that depends on its watts. Standard voltages below the top mandated voltage, which is 15V on a 30W charger, have to support 3A.

But chargers are allowed to offer higher voltages if they want to. Thank you for clarifying that.

(And I did check the spec for this post, it is mandatory, USB Power Delivery Specification Revision 2.0 Version 1.3, section 10.2.2, Normative Voltages and Currents.)

Edit: I also checked the programmable supply rules now in Revision 3.1, it looks like 1) they have the same math mandating at least 5/9/15/20 volts based on wattage, 2) you can choose any voltage between 3.3v and the mandated max, 3) at those voltages it has to supply at least min(3A, [supply wattage] ÷ [chosen voltage])

Seems like they should have just standardized one (Volts, Amps) tuple so you can at least always charge, even if slow. Like the (5V, 0.5A) we had...

5V 0.5A is always available. But the higher voltages need to be negotiated, and some devices need more than 5V to work.

I found this comment about electric toothbrush interesting.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29359544

Higher wattage chargers do not provide more power than the device being charged draws. Try reversing the USB-C connector, with some devices I have found that the reversible connector is in fact not always reversible.

My vape refuses to charge with a high wattage charger. Reversing doesn't work.

Likely not caused by the fact that the charger is high wattage.

I have an Anker charger with two ports which use different tech to detect what the device needs : an USB A with Anker's poweriq (which supports multiple fast charging standards like qualcomm QC, but it also charges devices that don't use fast charging), and an USB C port that only does USB PD.

My vape only charges on the USB A port with poweriq. The strictly USB PD port doesn't work for it (but works on all my other devices).

I've decided in the future I will only buy chargers from Anker that have their proprietary poweriq thing, and dismiss anything that only supports USB PD. Poweriq 3 also works with USB PD devices so having a charger or a port that only does USB PD seems useless.

My PS5 DualSense controller will not charge from my 45W / 60W USB-PD chargers, but will charge from the USB port on the PlayStation, or a USB port on a computer.

tbf, sony controllers have always been really finicky about what they're attached to in order to be charged. I can never figure out what's up with my DualShocks 3 and 4.

Part of the modern USB PD spec is that the two sides of the negotiation usually have a set of voltage/amperage pairings that they'll do (the highest aggregate pair(s) giving you the wattage of the adapter). Sometimes the things won't find a configuration that matches and so it won't charge. That's why, for eg., you can't charge the Nintendo Switch Dock with a macbook charger but can charge the switch itself. The dock is really picky (basically only does the pair the official nintendo adapter wants) and so is the macbook charger. The switch itself is more flexible though.

That said I would have thought the toothbrush would just do normal old USB charging, and that should work on a macbook charger no matter what I'm pretty sure? But maybe not.

Edit to add note: I think the most commonly missing voltage is 12v, so your toothbrush might want that.

The Nintendo Switch Dock wants 2.6A at 15V, so it doesn't work with the 30W Macbook Air charger which provides a max of 2A at 15V. The higher powered Macbook chargers work just fine with the Switch Dock.

It's nothing to do with the higher wattage, but they didn't Xiaomi implement USB PD up to spec. Likely missing the pulldown resistors on the CC lines.

You can read more about how they should implemented the PD sink here: https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-...

Hoping this pans out. I was gifted a black and decker drill which has a proprietary shape charge cable, and of course that cable has been misplaced.

A reasonable standard would prevent so much equipment from entering the landfill due to lost/expensive cables.

I agree. I find it to be quite annoying having to worry about misplacing my Philips Sonicare charger, electric shaver charger. I've already had to replace some of them but I also find it to be particularly arduous packing them for extended trips and also having to worry about {100,110,240}V compatibility.

I mean this still has a charger with a proprietary connector to the battery. just the PSU for that charger is usb-c now (at least for the dewalt one)

That’s true (for now), and hopefully this is just a first step. As that, it does have other perks too. The Dewalt adapter is 2-way, allowing you to use existing batteries to power USB-C devices.

I have replaced a bunch of annoying DC barrel chargers with little usb-c to barrel adapters, if your charger uses a barrel, odds are you can find one that will work.

"USB-C trigger" seems to be the magic phrase to search for.

As intriguing as those are, how do you know what voltage is being selected?

Of the ones I've seen, they either

a) just pass through 5v from the charger

b) Support PD and have a button to let you cycle through voltages (so you have to be careful not to fry your electronics)

Hmm, just plugging one of the buttonless ones I have in to a recent-ish Asus Vivobook with a tester inline, it shows 19.6V / 1.68A. The original charger for this laptop was 45W, so this is not quite as performant, but close enough for my purposes.

They are designed for laptops so I would expect them to in theory be choosing the right voltage for whatever brand the plug was designed, but they should not be used on random electriconics unless they specify the output voltage!

Perhaps the USB Chainsaw [0] will eventually be a reality?

DeWalt, are you listening?

[0] https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/usb-powered-chainsaw/

Umm, maybe not such a good idea:

“The chain saw can remain running when the switch is on the off position or turn on when plugged in…”

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2022/DeWALT-Recalls-18-inch-Cor...

its not a bug, its a feature! "Hot standby" or "always" ready" ... just the thing to differentiate a "home defense / tactical" chainsaw from the lower class workaday types.

I'm not sure if this a good idea. USB-C is way too delicate for power tools and has way too many useless contact in given contexts. Anyone would expect lots of small particles or dusts in the environment, the socket should be able to tolerate that and I really don't see how USB-C can handle that. In my home, the most damaged cables are USB-C ones followed by lightening ones which is more or less we can expect from USB-C power tools.

IMO any existing power tool battery socket will do as long as all power tools use the exactly the same standard. Current sockets are simple and robust, the only problem is really there are way too many of standard. Almost every vendor have their own. Making it worse, even with the same vendor, the sockets can be different between generation or different series, which make it really hard if not impossible to share batteries between tools. USB-C kinda alleviate the exchanging issue but in turn introduced reliability issue, which might be worse actually.

Standard charging ports are nice, but USB-C is too delicate for power tools.

Barrel connectors were always a bit crap, it would good to have something a bit more robust and standardised to replace them.

https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ is going to love this.

the real win with power tools would be a unified battery standard across manufacturers

Unfortunately I don’t think the various manufacturers would ever agree to such a thing. It’s a relatively easily solvable problem if you own a 3D printer though. There are a ton of adapters available on thingiverse already to mix and match batteries between them.

I think it should just be mandated by the government

Government should be minimal, regulation and policies aren’t a magic wand. Functioning free markets self regulate. The crux is that it’s very expensive and difficult to break into the market.

I’m also really tired of hearing folks continue to advocate for regulation of everything.

it worked for phone charger adaptors. every phone had its own proprietary connector before the EU stepped in and mandated micro usb. and things immediately got so much better.

Where do they have functioning free markets anyway?

Wow, they self regulated? So how do I get my dewalt batteries in my milwaukee drill as a result of this self-regulation?

Free market does not function without regulation enabling it, Interface standards are where regulations are pretty much absolutely to enable competition. No market is truly free, markets without regulation would only optimize for profit not better products or value for consumers.

Interop standards make markets freer. Vendors have negative financial incentive to support interop, larger/dominant they are the incentive worsens. Given reality of lock-ins, network effects and inefficiency/friction of migrations it is impractical to expect a better product will replace the ones without interop.

I cannot thank the free market enough for lead free gas, lead free paint, airbags, seat belts, removal of chlorofluorocarbons, etc.

Airbags are a funny example to bring up in a topic of unification, because airbags are not unified. The Americans and the Europeans have tried to unify airbag designs so that they don't need different designs on different continents, but apparently they've yet to agree on it. The basic gist was that Europeans want smaller/less forceful airbags, whereas Americans want bigger/more forceful airbags, and this stems from Europeans assuming the driver wearing a seatbelt and Americans assuming an unbelted driver.

The topic is regulation, not monoculture or planned economy. I am not arguing that everything has to be the same everywhere, I am arguing that the market is the wrong mechanism to rely on as the sole source of desirable change.

network neutrality ...

Has their been a functioning free market that self regulated in the past 100 year? This is a serious question, I am honestly looking for information.

All it takes is two or three manufacturers to agree on an interoperable standard and consumers will force the rest on board.

Are the battery management systems standard across manufacturers though?

one size doesn’t fit all. I quite like different battery designs. I have tools from multiple manufacturers, Milwaukee is my current favorite but Dewalt flexvolt is a close second. It can pump out 60 volts for high current tools.

sure, I do think there should be several standard form factors, based on the fact that there's different voltage tools alone. But it can still be standardized so that there's just like 4 - 6 to choose from, rather than every manufacturer forcing you into their ecosystem of incompatible chargers and batteries.

Even within ecosystem I get confused. Can I use a Toro 60V chainsaw battery with their 60V snowblowers at reduced runtime? Or vice versa?

I bet the answer on that kind of thing will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

edit: thinking further, can I just get an extension cable and put the battery pack in a backpack? I'd rather that than carry it around in a chainsaw form factor.

bosch also has two incompatible battery systems for their cheaper green lines and their blue line aimed at professionals.

I don't mind USB-C but the dang cables and adapters have limited discoverability. Power Delivery seems to go up to 240W for USB-C.

Other options for passing power and data would be PoE (90W Max using all 4 pairs). PoE also is very discoverable and easily crimped by an end user.

Any other standards out there we should be aware of?

As soon as we're talking about serious power, I'd like to see a UL-certification or something similar. I'd like to know this little widget isn't going to burn my house/apartment down.

There's Powerline ethernet over AC. Imagine a 'radio' plug instead of RJ-45 doing double-duty.

The reason USB is so popular for charging is because it delivers low-voltage DC power, not because it can be used for communication.

USB-C -> dc barrel jack cables (or pigtails) are now super cheap on amazon. 5V/9V/12V/15V/20V 3A dc connections from any usb power source. You can basically get rid of any wall wart you want at this point.

Like, my wifi router has a 12V wall wart, but I'm pretty sure the device won't care as long as it gets at least 6V. They probably just found 12V warts to be the cheapest, and then they can run thinner wire between the wart and device.

One day I'll get ahold of a pass-through USB battery pack and setup a poor-man's UPS. Extra points if I can hook up a solar panel to it that switches between mains and solar for charging.

Can I get a USB-C shaver now? I'm surprised that this is still a rarity, especially with travel shavers.

I have been crying for this for years. Braun just refuse to make one. Panasonic is finally heading to that direction though with their LamDash / Arc 6 Series.

Ignore the Xiaomi USB-C shaver, it is crap.

There's a bit of a modding community around the Makita 'LXT' battery system in particular, I can't quickly find it now but I'm sure I've seen USB-C done - possibly only for PD from the battery rather than charging it actually, thinking about it.

It's now time to extend USB PD from 100 watts to 10 kilowatts.

Then it can replace the AC outlet, and make power systems in homes worldwide consistent.

USB-C receiver ports are subject to wear and tear due to orthogonal applied forces.. Perhaps we will see a mitigation for this?

USB type c is designed to have a weaker plug than a receptacle, so plugs wear out/break faster than the receptacles.

I have seen the opposite effect on Samsung phones, I hope it's an exception.

Copy of my comment on a now-dead discussion:

A charging port right on the pack is a good idea, you can actually get AA li-ion batteries with usb-c charging (and power step down to 1.5V).[1] Also nice for these large batteries that you can use them to charge stuff as well. I’ve got a bunch of Hitachi li-ion power tools, almost 10 years old and the charger for that doubles as a usb power source when a battery is installed[2], but it’s nicer to have the output on the battery itself.

V-mount camera batteries often have USB ports for power out as well. These batteries are really nice for robotics projects as they come in a variety of sizes and an extra 5V power supply always comes in handy[3]

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Batteries-Lithi...

[2] https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/UC18YSL3-Hitachi-Charger-Slidi...

[3] https://tomantosfilms.com/13999/maxoak-v-mount-batteries/

Ugh. USB-C connectors are way, way more fragile than the connectors these power tools used to use. I break about a USB-C cable a week. I bet these things just aren't going to last more than a day or two on a construction site.

Power tool connectors should tolerate bricks being dropped on them.

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