My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
twitter.com
twitter.com
There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu to start it then when? It's just asking "Do you want to do this now?" if not that is fine (the menu can be exited), but now you know to do it later.
Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update), one can use the Miele@Home app to perform the update at a more convenient time.
I have a Miele dishwasher, it is connected to Wi-Fi (on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only). The Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those. In addition it tells me when the cycle is done. Performs updates, etc. There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!).
PS: If you're of the opinion that a dishwasher doesn't need to be on Wi-Fi and you wouldn't connect it... then great, that's another way not to be asked to do an update. This dishwasher isn't going to ask to connect to Wi-Fi, it's something you choose to do (something that takes a degree of determination I might add).
I can't think of a good reason to have a network-connected dishwasher. I don't think I'd ever start it remotely, as I still have to clear the table and rinse the dishes. The washer gets started when I'm done loading it. I can check detergent levels while the door is open.
Pretty much the same for all my other appliance for that matter.
I did see the twitter screenshots, but as I don't own the device myself I couldn't really judge if the GP's instructions are readily apparent to the average user.
Also, I don't disagree with you. But the OP seemingly bought such a device and connected it to their wifi. Maybe they are living in a furnished apartment with pre-configured wifi? Anyway - thankfully we are not yet in an era where ones only choice is a connected dishwasher - can still buy used, older models etc.
edit: One would hope that you can factory reset the dishwasher to make it forget the wifi information, if it has been configured by someone else.
It would be best if most machines didn't talk to us, at all. Press a button: it runs. Nothing more.
An appliance going "nope, I have one path for this" is, tbh, to be expected. A dishwasher washes dishes, and the idea that there is a secret-sauce way to tell it to do something it isn't actively presenting to you is not something a reasonable person is going to expect. It's why my dishwasher has like eight buttons on the top--it enumerates everything it can do. So if that appliance is hiding its verbs, then a reasonable person is going to assume it doesn't have any.
I don't even know what to make of that anymore. Just because it's self-deprecating doesn't make it okay.
I mean the tweet is putting the blame at the wrong people (it's a business decision after all), but I wouldn't go as far as call it "hate-inciting nonsense". You're not under attack.
I don't see it.
But there are miele versions with custom programmable cycles for things like sterilizing labware, etc, where I could see a web page interface much easier to use than the buttons or screen on the device.
There's about a dozen settings on the washer's wash-cycle dial, and two rows of buttons. I don't know what they're all for. It's nuts - there must be about 40 combinations.
Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.
But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.
Anecdata: In my wive's house, we have a Miele wasching machine from the year 2000. Its been used daily. It is as good as on the day it was purchased - quiet, and does not vibrate even when spinning at its max 1600 rpm. Its pretty amazing.
I believe when it was last cleaned they did install new firmware -- though to be entirely hoenest, I doubt a lot of people really know or care how efficient their wasching machines are -- water is way too cheap.
The dishes all need to be totally clean, every time, or it's useless to me.
That said, even the Bosch needed a new heat pump after 3 years which was an adventure in unreasonably complex disassembly.
I rinse things pretty well beforehand and use quick wash and it works well.
Overall I'm really happy with this machine though; worth the pretty penny it costs.
Seriously, you too can save a bunch of electricity and wasted time by pre-washing stuff before putting it in the dishwasher.
I do agree that it sounds like satire, though.
> There is no need to rinse items under running water!
Dishwashers already pre-wash with an initial rinse cycle, the whole point is that they do the washing for you. It's also a whole lot more efficient in terms of water waste.
The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.
That is really interesting, as I do use pods. I need to look into this more.
More generally, I have had a lot more success with not needing to re-wash things if I rinse before hand (but I don't have a miele).
I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.
This. Filling a dishwasher is an art of binpacking in itself. I'm pretty satisfied by my Bosch one, unless it is just a1-2 cycle before asking for the cleaning cycle, 95% of the times everything come up perfectly clean, even with the "eco" program. When something comes out dirty (if everything was properly placed), usually it will nag you to clean the dishwasher on the next cycle or the other.
Some people put the dirtiest dishes in the history of humanity in their washer and then complain it doesn’t clean very well. A quick rinse with water to get the chunks, or the really caked on stuff off works wonders.
- Don't use pods
- Fill the main and prewash cups every time. The prewash is intended to be used every time, not just when the dishes are exceptionally dirty.
- Run the hot water in the attached sink to full heat to ensure the washer gets filled with hot water
As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.
My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.
We humans can be so annoying sometimes.
EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p
The big one that drives me nuts on new cars are all the auto start/stop at idle systems. They eat car batteries and starters (increase wear from oil starvation on startup too - consumer car engines are not positively lubricated; pressure has to pump back up every time the engine starts) and there is no way to disable them other than pushing a button every time you start your car (or hacking around with the wiring), but I'm sure they are critical in obtaining higher gas milage requirements so expect them to proliferate. It's crap that happens when you focus on one metric - gas milage - to the exclusion of "the big picture" such as total carbon footprint over the life of the car including the manufacturing and replacement costs/environmental impact of replacing prematurely worn out parts from "energy efficient" design decisions.
The only time it ever fails is when something blocks a rotor and half a tray doesn't get any water on the underside.
But I don't think spraying more, hotter water at the clean half will help that.
Or it is treated by the same algorithm like all the other cleaning powders, which is: "mix with water then spray through nozzles". Strangly enough, this has worked great for decades without firmware updates. For the longest time it even worked without firmware.
If I want more, I put in 2 tabs.
If I want none, I put in no tab.
If I want my dishes to smell like soup, I put in a buillon cube. (Not recommended by whoever built the Dishwasher)
Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."
My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is forced to use individual pods.
But if that's the case then I'm not sure how this would work unless the user enters a config setting or something for what soap they're commonly using. Water hardness the washer could measure itself, I guess.
Edit: another commenter below (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147979) links to the manual (https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...), which answers most of these questions.
No.
But they do have an auto-dosing capability on some models that take a disk and dispense the right amount of powder for the given wash.
Which? reviewed this and concluded it's a gimmick: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/is-this-miele-dishwashe... . I agree with this verdict.
The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.
My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.
Another gimmick that machine has, it's auto-opening at the end of the cycle in order to vent off steam.
I had many different dishwashers over the years, but Miele one is so far the best I ever had
I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.
There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.
Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.
(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)
I don't think that post was necessarily directed at Miele, but at designers designing for design sake in general.
> come running to unload it when it's done?
You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s
Load in the evening, unload in the morning.
Apps used: 0.
Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.
If it has a screen then surely it's possible to show its current status.
Or, and bear with me because this is a really crazy idea... how about a single LED to show it's busy?
And check out the new Ridiculous wash cycle!
The jokes practically write themselves.
This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.
For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.
1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.
The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.
As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.
This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."
Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.
https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...
First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.
Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.
Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.
Do never connect things to any network - and especially the internet - if it is not required for operation.
What worries are people which blindly request "more digitalization". We need resilience, not digitalization! Once a unnamed person complained about the fact the the Boeing 747-400 still gets flight data updates with a floppy. They argued it should use WiFi and central updates from a server and so on. NOT! The floppy allows control, save operation and flexible updates. Don't even add an USB-Port, this just allows someone to roast the electronics with a cheap USB-Gadget.
Just let programmers program more code doesn't make good programs. Actually it is vice versa.
Seriously I don’t understand the need at all to have your kitchen be connected to wifi at all. Not everything needs to be quantified, unless you use measuring cups for cooking.
Second I can’t trust manufacturers to rush something out the door to “fix it in post”
That said while I do disagree with the above consumers, I don't care about remote control but I would quite like remote status updates from various appliances (is the door locked, is the washing cycle finished, has the fridge been left open, etc.)
I suspect the only value most consumers see in these features is lower retail pricing.
Real-world examples:
(1) Download firmware, stick it on a USB drive, put USB drive in device, go through arcane menus or button press sequence to do an update. I have two devices that work this way, an aftermarket car stereo Bluetooth adapter and a (musical) keyboard.
(2) Install some app (and maybe a driver) on a Windows computer, connect device to computer, and have the app push the firmware to the device. I have an old Garmin GPS watch that does it this way. (Which is extra annoying because the watch has an Android companion app which communicates with the watch over Bluetooth, and it can tell you an update is available but can't apply it.)
The buzzwords I never hear on HN is Digital Twin. It's usually in a HVAC or like smart building context. It's a buzzword for a simple idea, but the makers of the Miele AC app probably should have thought a little harder about tracking system state, maybe read a little of the literature.
My experience with "high end" appliances in general (Bosch, Miele, Wolf, Subzero) is that it's a tax on "rich people". They're not better than top-line LG, etc.
Theres more than initial acquisition cost or the looks of the appliance that's worth considering when purchasing!
Miele had a definite edge on build quality, that means that services are fewer and farther between than with other brands given the same amount of use.
The joke was that if you wanted to armor plate your car you could do so with the side panels of Miele washing machines. Not too far from the truth, they were also much heavier than competitor gear. But those days are - as far as I can tell - over.
Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of those companies haven’t existed for longer than my latest washer.
You buy those brands because you know exactly what you get. Basically guaranteed performance for the next 10 years, and very likely after.
I do wish they didn’t jump on the app bandwagon, but they really have no choice since the rabble wants it. I swear people will pick an appliance with an app simply so they don’t have to press the preheat button on their oven. And you can do it from the couch! Never mind that you don’t ever do that…
No, you won't. Just because you had an appliance that lasted 20 years before doesn't mean you are going to get the same today (you aren't). Energy efficiency standards have affected all manufacturers. Complexity leads to unreliability over time - all manufacturers are affected. Some will still be better than the rest, but if you aren't prioritizing manufacturers who are repair friendly you are going to either be spending multiples of the original cost of your appliance over time, or just flat out replacing them more often.
Or just fix that 20 year old appliance you already have when it breaks (almost always the best answer vs. buying new - with just about anything!)
Absolutely. The other day a colleague described the fact that her washing mashine's app tells her when the program is finished as an essential, must-have feature. I understand that it's useful and nice to have but if you're wearing an Apple Watch anyway, as she does, just set a timer. It's what I do.
is bosch really a "high-end" appliances company? I always considered it mid-range company, producing appliances for the middle-class.
Love my Breville toaster oven though - thing is so stinking versatile and by far the best of any I have ever used. We use it as an oven far more than as a toaster. Perfect for heating/baking most stuff without heating up the entire house like the regular oven does. We have the one that also has the air fry mode - use that mode all the time to cook vegetables that are delicious and a lot healthier too. Did I mention we really love our Breville toaster oven? And to think I originally chose it because it was the only one I could find that had a stinking light inside?
Even if you opened the door it would still do all 6 super loud beeps. It became a race to get there with one second left to stop it.
Also every press of any key would emit a loud beep. Stupid.
So I opened it up and snipped the stupid buzzer a while back.
It's so much nicer to have a silent microwave now.
please, rich people don't even notice the cost of these pieces of equipment. the ones that might feel the pinch are the ones punch above their weight class to give of the look the are better off than they are. not much different from classes of cars that look like you make money, but every time you take them to the dealership, minimum $800.
if that's a tax on rich people, then they aren't very rich.
All that said, I do not own a Miele dishwasher because it's benefits are not worth the high cost to me, however I have severe allergies and while I hated to pay for it, a Miele vacuum has ruined me for all other vacuums.
*Not a Miele salesman, just love very clean carpets. I'd be thrilled to learn about a cheaper alternative that can remove hair/dander/dust and etc as well from carpets as a Miele can, but so far nothing has come close.
And if you have hard surface floors there is nothing faster than pulling out a lightweight flexible hose with a floor brush and running the vac over it. Faster than sweeping and again doesn't stir up dust/dander/hair like sweeping does.
I will never own a house without a central vac. And if you are really OCD about your carpet cleaning there are Wet/Dry central vac systems that have built in carpet cleaners. Will automatically discharge the waste water to the sewer. A bit pricy and exotic but I have a few friends who if they owned such a system would probably use them weekly (and mold the heck out of their carpets too!).
I’ve been kitting out a new house and the appliance I’ve been most satisfied by far is my Victory Twister range hood. It’s a stainless steel box with a blower, some lights, a couple wires and two rotary switches. I wish I could buy all my appliances without PCBs.
Well, kind of what I expect when I buy a cheap dishwasher.
(that's sarcasm)
The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades).
So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop."
What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect.
Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.
Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g.
1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping
2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)
yes and then it accelerates and you go over the time you wanted and you have to wait for a whole 24:00 loop to reach the correct time again
I mean this 100% seriously: this is super easy to configure. No reason to fiddle with wifi, phone, app nor website.
My wife starts work earlier than me, so goes to bed sooner, but takes a shower before bed. She often asks me to start the dishwasher after she finishes showering (So the water temp in her shower doesn't fluctuate while the dishwasher fills), and then I forget all about it.
I need to just hit that Delay button.
Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex.
> If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.
I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.
Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser.
The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.
Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved.
Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.
By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers.
>designers start to wedge them in just because they can
Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.
And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you.
>And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however.
>few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors
I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU.
Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans?
God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year?
With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale.
This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements.
What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
It takes a simple google search if you were interested.
A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs.
This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2].
The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5].
Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr.
This took < 5 minutes to find using google.
[1] https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems...
[2] https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-app...
[3] https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_1...
[4] https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-...
[5] https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishw...
Improvements in these appliances always feel a little like those percentages on dishwashing liquid. If I would multiple all the improvements since 1990 I think one drop of detergent will be enough for the rest of my life.
Even today a super basic mechanical timer based washing machine probably won't work as well or as efficiently as a high end unit with various sensors and logic.
In the time that I've had mine, I would have had to replace a modern one about three times. I think that new ones would be more water efficient, but I do not see new ones being more efficient electrically. Mine is plumbed to hot water, so the heating elements are not used much and it dries them with blown air instead of heat.
If I am looking to reduce my electrical footprint there is much lower hanging fruit than my dishwasher. How much energy would go into the manufacturing, delivery, and installation of three dishwashers?
Nobody wants to update the firmware of their dishwasher! (or anything, really)
I'm sure one can think of "benefits" to this, but as this incident shows, the annoyance far, far outweighs any possible benefit.
This is really getting out of hand. "Right to repair" should include "right to dumb down".
Yes! Especially with cars - Toyota backed down but they are full of crap; they fully intended to do it until people objected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc
I love how the only people that were going to be exempted were peoples who's cars cellular modems already didn't work. How convenient.
I hope I can be buried in the cars I currently own. And if I have to buy a new one if it won't work with the cellular modem being pulled out I ain't buying it.
...
That probably says what needs to be said about smart appliances. There's a reason that's the right choice. This same reason is the reason smart appliances are a bad idea.
Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?
TBH I figure that this is roughly the point when the Wi-Fi chipsets can't connect to whatever the standard is at that moment in time.
The only really useful Wi-Fi feature of the white goods in my house would be within the hob and the extractor hood. These communicate over Wi-Fi so that the extraction is automatically turned on at the appropriate speed for however the hob is being used, and turned off 30 seconds after the hob stops being used.
I do appreciate your respect for the usefulness of this functionality -- I just throw my laundry in the machine, press ON and then press START, throw in a random amount of soap and 60 minutes later or so I have clean clothes.
Into the dishwasher?
Ever seen someone use the coffe-maker to cook instant ramen?
Of course this is stupid; you put the dry ramen in a bowl, pour on boiling water, and wait a minute or two. That's what the instructions on the pack actually say. It's not necessary to boil ramen.
Although for countries where laundry machines are typically in the kitchen, a theoretical hybrid machine would be interesting (if it worked well, and the dish specific stuff could fold away compactly), but in practice multi-function machines like that rarely seem to turn out well.
Can't you have the machine running HA on two vlans or route with your router?
1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security").
The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager.
2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too.
For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent.
3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...
This should merit a post all by itself.
These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but they also open the opportunity for subscriptions and who-knows-what-kind-of in-app purchases which can be sold to anxious-complacent-frazzled consumers with extra disposable income.
Not sure of the number of units sold comparing dishwashers vs TVs, so maybe there's not enough volume in dishwasher? Also, I can only imagine the analytics data from TV viewing is much more informative/beneficial than how many times someone washes dishes.
The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning.
Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying.
When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving.
So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind.
And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall.
Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost.
But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.
Honestly I'm amazed that so many people actually connect their "smart" TVs to the Internet. No way in hell!
The current morass of advertising chicanery continues to exist because people are willing to trade away their privacy for convenience.
If you know something sucks but continue to do it because it's convenient then it's beyond disingenuous to keep complaining about it.
"Doctor it hurts when I do this" and all that :p
We got the TV mainly because the picture quality was much better than the others they had at Costco.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
>Miele’s cleaning performance is strong, but not quite the best we’ve found. We tested two different Classic Plus units (both installed in our office in Long Island City, New York), and they struggled a bit with the stubbornest foods, including a cheese-and-bean plate, egg, oatmeal, and burnt brownie. Miele’s model was a step behind the Bosch, Whirlpool, Maytag, and even GE dishwashers we tested. Consumer Reports (“Quick Guide: Dishwashers,” Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2021, pp. 23–25) also rates Miele just a tick below the best performers. But with most loads, most of the time, a Miele should still get everything totally clean.
1: This was reported in the news in the Netherlands, they may not be introducing this everywhere at once, but it is a worrying trend.
I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow -
First start Ask to update software - sounds legit OK Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to!
If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher!
but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.
For example, I have CTs directly attached to my laundry circuits which I monitor to generate alerts. Helps keep the family moving along when we all have laundry queued up.
See what i did there. one sentence.
THE ISSUE PRESENTED IN THE POST: I want to use the product. I have to inconvenience my routine to use it.
This issue is pervasive in tech. It ASSUMES the idiot. Big Tech is defining what is best for the user. This is what we have bought. This post is pointing that out. From what I can tell, the Parent post here is a shill or is the typical 'doesn't happen to me tech elitist'.
That's about it. Found my login to make this comment. Logging out.
When it's empty, you still have to actually fill it, so if the LED comes on just fill the tank at some point in the next 10 or so cycles and it'll do.
And when old bag or bottle is empty, buy salt on one of the next 10 or so supermarket trips. The dishwasher will not need more any time soon after a refill.
Maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of modern life, but it feels like yet more stats porn to go with all the metrics vomited into life by fitness trackers and apparently every piece of software.
I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a software update.
Before this apartment I lived in one where all the appliances were straight out of 1950/60. They were retro af but they worked without any issues for the time I lived there. Here I’ve had issues every month.
You can have your cake and eat it too, but you do have to do some work to get there. I can control every light switch, thermostat, garage doors, deadbolts, and a few other random things. All from my phone. Automate things, get notified if I want, when the door is unlocked/opened/whatever. But critically, if my Home Assistant goes down, it all fails back to 1950s style. E.g. the deadbolts still have a physical key and a twist knob on the inside (though the keypad functionality is not Internet-dependent). This does mean I don't use any devices that become unusable when the HA server or Internet disappears (for example, Hue bulbs).
For devices that don't have local control as an option, I just refuse to buy them. I won't buy things that require a 'net connection to function.
Yup! It used to be a lot harder, but with Homekit and Home Assistant it's more accessible with less tinkering than ever before.
I hope Matter (the Amazon/Google/Apple consortium based on Homekit) doesn't blow out the cloud-free options - hopefully Apple can reign in the others.
I think people in general prefer simple and reliable, but sometimes it doesn't seem like it since people who buy smart devices talk about them a lot (not a criticism aimed at those people specifically, people like to talk up their purchases in general).
The genius of Nest in my opinion was the UX improvement of having one big number in the middle showing the set temperature, you can always see what it's set at and just turn left or right to change it. Basically going back to the same UX of those 1960's era thermostats that you're talking about, but with extra options like remote access available if you want them.
In terms of thermostat UX I now have the best of both worlds, I love the simplicity and I also love being able to change the temp without getting up from the couch, plus the "eco mode when away from home" feature has generally been rock solid for me and saves money while reducing emissions.
No such mandates exist for home appliances. The connectivity/apps are purely a money-grab - either people like the general idea of connected devices, or the manufacturer thinks they can monetize that connectivity post-sale (or likely some combination of the two).
Without backup cameras, eventually small children will evolve to be backup resistant.
> No such mandates exist for home appliances.
There are ever-increasing efficiency requirements, some of which all but require computerization.
I believe that the current EU mandate for cars is that they must have cellular connectivity, which is of course for calling emergency services in a crash.
I think "ostensibly for safety" is a better description of some of it.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...
However, this only activates and sends data in the event of a crash.
Additionally, under EU law consent would be needed for any other uses of this data (and hell no would I be giving consent).
This would allow the device to be tracked from cell to cell by IMEI, if this is indeed how it works.
Note that a mobile device does not need to be registered with the tower to make emergency calls (it works in a cell with no sim!) so it may not actually permit this type of tracking, but also car manufacturers might put a subscriber module in to maintain IP connectivity for additional services even if the car owner doesn't subscribe. This configuration (such as was factory installed in my 2015 BMW 4 series) does allow for carrier/tower-based location tracking.
I had mine ripped out.
There really is a benefit for a Mazda MX-5 Miata to have a backup camera? It would be far more of a distraction than just swiveling your head. Not to mention the e-waste cost of all the useless components in millions of similar cars.
One size fits all solutions should be the rarest of the rare, not the norm. Tire pressure sensors? Sure - useful and most people don't think to check (heck I don't check as often as I should!). But complex crap like cameras and screens in a car the size of a go-cart? Utterly ridiculous and beyond wasteful.
I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn’t trust water quality measurements coming out of my dishwasher anyway. It’s measuring hot water which isn’t what you should be drinking, and I’d give it a 99% chance that the person who crammed those sensors in didn’t do a good job of insulating them from the heat, vibration, etc.
And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher.
> And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine.
Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water.
Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value.
> At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term.
If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.
A quick search indicates that most (all?) dishwashers have a heater to bring the water up to the necessary level. But also that you should give them the hottest water you can from your plumbing for efficiency.
So you use the hot water line so the water is in the ballpark of the proper temperature, then use the internal heating units to hit and maintain the target temperature.
Although there’s also a big push to start using cold water for clothes. Supposedly modern detergents don’t need hot water typically.
By all means, turn our home PCs into supercomputers and our televisions into 3D hologram projectors, but let "dumb" but reliable goods persist.
Next they'll start making smart cissors, smart drinking glasses, smart pens...
Unfortunately if his goals came to fruition the vast majority of people would be in the same place. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like free software is only a small piece of it.
Free software means that in theory you can modify and maintain the software you run on your machines to your liking (not hardware though, or backends). But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
> But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
And where is this font of developers writing replacements for abandoned free software? We've had decades of GPL software. The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
Where can I go to a shop and buy, e.g., a laptop with Linux? It's practically impossible. I guess it's because the monopolies don't allow anyone to enter the market. In practice, Linux is already better for many use cases.
I also have no idea how this is related to the fact that almost no actual consumers are taking advantage of GPL code to continue to maintain their products beyond support offered by their developers. If anything, this would be evidence that GPL software isn't a panacea since doing something as basic as installing Linux is far beyond the capacity of most consumers.
Yes, I can do it, but 95% of people can't. Incidentally, about 5% of people run Linux.
> how this is related to the fact that almost no actual consumers are taking advantage of GPL code
Because the more people use the code, the more development occurs there.
Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!?
It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arguments for how free software could kinda maybe carve out a niche of funding and keep a few passionate people employed for not quite enough money. Spare me. It's like every aerospace engineer deciding that what they're doing is immoral and they should all just be aircraft maintenance techs. It's a completely different, much less creative, and much less satisfying job (for the engineering-minded, anyway).
Of course patents are a different story, and basically are immoral under the current system. And there are clear "right to repair" and ownership rights that we also need to fight for. Can we focus on those fights instead of shaming software developers for wanting to make money on the code they write?
> if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open
Totally agree! Once you start selling a product, you should be required to make provisions for your company not existing anymore. Source-code trusts that have the authority to make code public domain or provide it to stakeholders in certain situations, when it can be shown the current IP-holder is not meeting their obligations, would be a great idea. This does not interfere with the interests of active, good-faith copyright holders, except perhaps by charging them a small fee to the trust.
>User repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
Totally agree! That is what "right to repair" is referring to.
There are ways to solve these problems, and banning copyright on software isn't really even one of them.
[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
Extending that freedom to allow distributing the end result of those patches to people who don't have a license to use the original software (as freedom 2 does) would just be another, slightly less direct way of abolishing software copyright.
Which is the right thing to do. Copyright creates artificial monopolies and harms users, as was predicted by Stallman: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor.... There should be a different, just way to be paid for software.
Fantasy land. Open source projects have been looking for such a way for decades now, with no luck. Copyright has so far proven to be the only practical, "just" way to make software development viable as a business.
Copyright does not in and of itself "harm" users, unless you consider having to pay for the goods you use to be "harm". The harms described in the article you linked could be mitigated by freedom 1 alone (combined with the portion of freedom 3 that's already allowed under existing law, as discussed).
Free software is not against allowing people to make money. In fact, their model is that people are paid to make changes and support the free software and those changes are shared. And it's still possible to make software and get paid without sharing it.
Free software in fact depends on legal protection.
Only the absolutely lowest end student slum apartments where I live (in a very not-rich state) don't already have a washer hookup/tap. Any home a person would actually purchase would have one already, so no effort.
Why is that? what diagnostics are it running to tell if it needs to run longer?
I thought they ran by timers, in which case cycle times are...cycle times.
Seems fancy but nonsense.
It needs to heat until the desired temperature is achieved. This will take more time in colder weather.
No one needs an internet connected dish washer.
Just give me something I don’t need to sleep with one eye open all the time.
Actually, I have a Bosch/Siemens dishwasher with Wifi because it is very good dishwasher, but I've never connected it to my Wifi, because I don't want to think about advanced persistent threads infilitrating my dishwasher.
As a Linux user I know RPi pretty well but piezoelectric is something I used to light gas, resistors are something I studied at school (and things that heat), a diode... maybe, but clamping? I won't be able to put those pieces together.
I'd buy a smart plug with a http url to call to turn it on and off and make a web app running on a RPi at home to manage that plug.
Unless you're actually looking for sub-minute precision on its timing, the cycle time is pretty fixed. Dishwashers don't care about load or dirtyness, they care about the program you select.
Too much user lazyness and machine automatism make things go sideways.
Also, machines that let you open the door while it's running might result in more confusion than anything else (is the cycle just started or it is actually ending?).
The ability to start it, and confirm it’s started is a game changer. Especially because it’s preloaded with the chemicals.
We don’t want to start it until we’re sure all the floating dishes actually got loaded. There’s a stray dish, a glass, life’s just a little chaotic getting dinner cleaned up and everyone to bed. We forget or we hit start but someone else opens it to add something. Without the act of adding soap and with two or three people adding things it’s surprisingly easy.
A lot of these are features as a single guy I found stupid. Now married with a kid they are just little enablers of greater calm.
But after a 10hr work da bookended by 2 hrs on each side playing with my daughter and 1hr of dealing with life stuff I want to get into bed.
Beds on the second floor…I can get up and go downstairs and check the light. Or I can look at an app on my phone.
I’ll totally admit, I was incredibly anti smart appliance. I don’t want a tablet on my fridge. But done well, done quietly, they can actually put some really nice features in my life.
Washer/dryer - I can keep loads of laundry moving while working in the yard and I get an alert when the dryers done
Fridge- reminds me when it needs a new water filter and let’s me auto reorder it from Amazon. If it breaks a tech can remotely troubleshoot it and bring the right part the first time.
Dishwasher - see above. It also has the little light.
Until I was a parent. I would have laughed at all of that. And I still follow internetofshit on twitter
None of that is necessary, sure. But, also isn't worth vitriol from the crowd that hates them.
why does my fridge need to text me if the door is left open? that's ridiculous!
Well yeah...but if your teenager leaves it open, as teenagers are won't to do, how would I know if I'm in an office in another part of the house? (hypothetical, I don't have teenagers but I was one).
We (partner, me , contractor) are renovating a house right now. There is a kids bathroom upstairs. I FOUGHT and I mean fought my partner and the contractor over one feature I wanted. I won and am so happy. That feature? The whole floor is sloped towards the external wall, the whole floor (from door to door wall to wall) is a three inch high sealed tub, and there is an emergency drain with an oil filled p-trap that just dumps outside. Cost us an extra $1,000. That's less than the deductible on our home owners insurance and way less than the damage a flooded bathroom would cause. The user research here was totally in how many families (including mine) had kids accidentally flood a bathroom doing dumb stuff and ruin the space below it as well.
Features are driven by user research, or should be. Rather than just calling it dumb because it doesn't fit your use case - think about the other users who might benefit. Especially when you are looking at feature that don't make sense if people behave rationally.
We have had to be extremely diligent with our contractors because of the number of times/things they do where they just operate on the autopilot of what is typically done. Its human nature, but the norms in building homes to me are just wildly outdated. Wildly.
The manual is here: https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...
Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.
My dishwasher has a start delay function, basically the same... although if it's 'smart' I guess you could align it with things like a smart grid, highly variable rates, solar panels and battery. But that's something for the 1%.
Filters is a double-edged sword, because since it's a consumable, it's in the manufacturer's interest to give false positives for the need to replace filters, like printer ink.
Detergent reservoir levels, I don't know if that's a thing, mine has a reservoir for salt, but I have to put a detergent tablet in myself for every cycle. Would be convenient if it was built in, I guess.
The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer.
The Good:
1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips.
2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requires updates because it assumes that it is faulty.
3. Allow additional services, such as special run cycles, custom control of run cycles, etc.
4. Collecting anonymous telemetry data to determine actual use patterns, allowing for better focus on features people actually use or may want. Potentially allows for increases in efficiency (including end user resource costs like time, water, and electricity).
The Bad:
1. Aggregating anonymous telemetry data to sell to third parties for additional profit.
2. Facilitating planned obsolescence (software EOL = appliance EOL).
3. Denial of right-to-repair (John Deere).
4. Facilitating vendor lock-in.
5. Collecting non-anonymous telemetry data used for targeted advertising.
* Potential for wifi chipsets to collect other data from your network and send to anywhere.
If you are going to do IoT or have wifi enabled appliances, setup a separate network for them to operate on. I find it easier to just not have them, so far.
Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer.
More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in a spreadsheet, going over our dishwasher telemetry? Oh! Maybe you mean, also only of use to the manufacturer. Not my problem; not a reason to make my device more complicated for me.
> The buttons on the front are a few cents.
It's knowing where those buttons need to be that is potentially costly. Offloading that to an app lets you cover all bases of unknown UI desire. Of course its still a terrible argument because dishwashers don't need to also be a disco ball or whatever nonsense marketing there is to justify the obvious money grab.
Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely skeptical about IoT. I'm an experienced sysadmin, and that means I hate technology. There is a massive legislative need to protect the public from the damage these devices could do to customer rights, and the legislatures we've had for almost as long as I can remember are about as interested in filling that need as they were interested in protecting the worker and the right to unionize in the 19th century. Which is to say, it's more likely that the President will send the Army in to crack skulls than they'd pass a bill to do something right.
But the Digital Revolution doesn't just mean FAANG. It also means the Third Industrial Revolution. That's been going on for 35+ years. It's not new, and it's not going away. IoT will happen because it's simply too good for manufacturing not to do it even if they can't monetize their customers' data. IoT can provide real improvements just like networking computers has. There are unknown gains in efficiency, productivity, and quality of life to be gained here. The Information Age isn't NFTs and tracking cookies all the way down.
> More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
It's just an example, man. I'm not a dishwasher engineer. I don't know what they need to do, let alone to what they are capable of or what they could be used for but aren't because of the current structure.
It's not just about dishwashers either. All modern appliances are digital. What can you make any appliance in your home do with continuous monitoring and re-programmability?
IoT could be done so much better. First, give some benefit (E.g. give you a service call when something went wrong).
And Why not use a simple VPN to the host? Encrypt the link some other way? Hell, require a password?
I've programmed IoT device firmware for clients. I put in security - they want it removed. Because it makes installation harder for their staff. No profit in it.
I'd run from any IoT device today. Until we have some legislation or accountability or even UL rating for security, there will be no security at all.
Ok, but many times this leads to wrong conclusions. Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
Yes, but they're much more accurate than the existing systems: user surveys and focus groups. Those are both notoriously useless because people lie (intentionally or otherwise). Even so, telemetry doesn't wholly replace them. It's on top of them.
Marketing is hard, in part because the data you're working with is either (a) untimely, (b) incorrect, or (c) incomplete. User surveys and focus groups are often all three. Telemetry data is largely just incomplete. That's still a huge improvement. In the worst case, it can be used like grading a test.
> Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
And thanks to a software based interface, maybe you don't need to eliminate that feature. You just don't need to continue to develop it.
Look, whether or not their market data is correct, a company that dedicates their resources in the wrong spot is reducing the value of their product to the customer. It means the product is more expensive for no reason. It means that the majority are subsidizing a feature they don't use in exchange for more development on the core functionality that they do. That's just what that means.
And in terms of probability, the truth is that you've got features on your appliances that you paid for and you will never use. Wouldn't you like your money back on those features? You might be the guy who loves the lilac perfume option in your dishwasher, but you probably aren't if only 5% of people use it. That makes it a luxury feature at best, especially because it might be another point of failure. Let those who want the luxury feature pay the cost of that luxury feature.
Tell me you've never bought an appliance or tool that has a dozen features that get in the way of what you actually want to use it for. How that one time you bought a really nice coffee maker because you want to make good coffee easily, and you ended up spending 10 minutes every morning arguing with it. So you went out and got a coffee maker whose only control is an on-off rocker switch, and you love it because it's dead simple, gives you exactly as much control as you want, and can be operated by the pre-coffee brain.
You'd keep the dumb maximum spray-area approach for the pre-wash & rinse cycles, but replace the main wash cycle with a "smart-nozzle" approach that uses a radar (or some other non-optical sensor) to detect surfaces and apply a directed spray.
Theoretically, that would save on energy costs/impact (heating water costs way more than running a SoC/radar), even if the overall wash quality wouldn't really be improved much in most cases. Plus... the technology would be super marketable, imagine the commercials!
So if the top rack is pretty empty or just glasses which are mostly clean, while the bottom rack is full of pots with lots of grease, it will spend more time operating the sprayers on the bottom rack than the top rack.
Normally I'd say someone should check the numbers, but this time I think you have better things to do...
It's been used for decades and it's extremely cheap and reliable.
It is handy if you have a lot of laundry to do (kids) and you want to be on top of doing one load after another / not forget.
What I did instead was paste an Aqara zigbee vibration sensor to the side of the washing machine. Then a little bit of Home Assistant magic and it tells me when the washer seems to be done. In case I didn't hear the symphony it plays at the end of a cycle.
/the real depressing and scary thing about the above is this comment having to indicate i'm being sarcastic
The device isn't smart, it's just a big social experiment to check whether you're smart enough not to buy one. (and sadly too many people have failed, so they increased their efforts to get meaningful data by getting rid of other options. Nowadays you often can only buy "smart" devices, or you repair your old stuff)
All they do is take away more time and make once simple tasks overly complex... oh, and they break more easily than previous generations it seems. Which only makes sense.
My mother cried on the phone when she had replaced her washing machine with a "smart" one, that only made her life more complex.
She had bought the same brand for over 30 years, now she will never buy one of their machines again.
If you want internet-connected devices so you can - and I can't imagine why - start your dishwasher remotely, then you necessarily open the door to software updates.
Also how can it know there is an update unless it's already connected to the network... I'm certain there is a way to exit this also and continue operating as it was.
Don't take this as an allowance of disrespectful design - but this post is less than genuine in it's position.
My 2 year old loves to help me load the dishes. She complains if I don't let her close the soap container and then press the button to start the machine.
It's never broken dishes on me. Never failed to clean anything. I've never forgotten to start it, or forgotten to add soap. It runs exactly when I want it to.
My dishwasher has 5 buttons on it. I just had to count them. I have only ever pushed 1, the start button. No digital display. No wifi. No broken firmware updates. Simplicity.
So smart a two year old can use it.
If the latter, I honestly don't know how we got so blessed with a product that's this amazing in so many diverse ways.
But my two year old is now 11 and doesn't like to help with dishes any more. Sigh.
This prevents exploitation of their crufty software, but also prevents the manufacturer to brick or otherwise use them against you with unscrupulous updates. If a software update exists, you will apply it manually if you are bothered by the specific bugs.
Never auto-update embedded software, never trust them on your network if they don't belong there, never trust their programmers to do anything but a half-ass hack, the absolute minimum required to get the product out the door, expecting they will issue updates.
[1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/connected-cars-how-5g-and-iot-...
[2]: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-...
What people say they want and what they actually do in the store are two completely different things. They'll say they want the basic, easy to use model that just does what it says. When in the store, they see all these products and complex feature lists and the nice sales person up sells them the convoluted thing that they never needed. Works for phones. Works for TVs. Works for Cameras. Works for cars.
A smart dish washer has a slight premium over a dumb one. This might not be valuable for everyone but there is a rather large category of people that can be easily talked into paying that premium. They'll buy features just based on a notion of getting more value for their money even if they arguably will never use those features.
People are just easy to manipulate into spending more than they should. I used to work at Nokia when they still made phones and for a long term they created endless variations of the same 3 basic software platforms. One in particular, S40, was used for dozens of different phone models per calendar year. These were largely the same phones with features turned off/on, slightly different form factors, and different software and hardware versions.
This BTW was not Symbian (a common misunderstanding) but a feature phone platform that started out in the mid nineties. The first model to market was the flip phone in the Matrix. Symbian also started around that time but was a completely different OS.
The main point here is: most customers had no clue what they were buying. They bought a "Nokia". And when they were in the store they wanted the best Nokia they could afford. Which was basically a process of selecting based on shininess (literally with the Vertu phones, which were actually unimpressive feature wise) and check-marks in some huge feature matrix (more is better).
The dishwasher I buy will never need software.
I am a software engineer and I love technology, but I love simple technology and when something doesn't need software, I don't add software just for the sake of having software.
If you have that option. Not sure if you've shopped for white goods recently, but the options without wifi are relatively few, and mostly lower end models.
We needed a new stove, I wanted one without wifi/internet connectivity. Due to the above and supply chain issues that limited availability of a lot of models, I didn't have a choice and ended up with a model with wifi/internet connectivity. I have, of course, not connected it.
The first one we had, we had for over 20 years until it broke down.
If I can only get an IoT-thingy, I'll refuse to buy one and either repair the old one or wash by hand.
I am a green-nut, so I try to minimize my eco-footprint, but enough is enough and I draw a line when my dishwasher needs to phone home.
What software update could it possible need? A better algorithm for dosage?
At some point the repairs/parts cost more than what the original dishwasher is worth.
Regarding the algorithm, I'm not sure they make a huge difference anyways. FWIW, The Technology Connections channel on YouTube has a couple of pretty interesting videos on how dishwashers work and how to get the most out of them:
You still have to specifically choose a Wifi one. (Though again, I can see if availability issues might throw a wrench into that if you needed one right away.)
.... What does the associated app do?
Not going to have that option in 5 years. Count yourself lucky if it doesn't require a Google Play account.
Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.
perhaps they tried, but got stuck on the bit where they tried to figure out if it halts or not.
From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher:
- control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage.
- input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible.
The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
Despite plenty of great physical abilities of the washer/dryer, it's almost ruined by a useless UX that obsessively locks one out of all sorts of perfectly legitimate transitions, meaning one has to frequently turn it off and back on to force the change of activity, adding frustration for something that could easily be handled if only they'd not crippled the device and made you wait while you cycle it.
But once you do have wifi functionality so you have wifi hardware, then the thing needs patching and upgrades too. Maybe some server address has changed, maybe a security fix, etc. And obviously if you have wifi hardware, it's the easy way to upgrade the software.
So the question I think isn't "Why does the firmware need to be updated at all"? It likely wouldn't, if the firmware just made the machine clean dishes. The question one should ask is, why does it have network features at all? What possible use case can exist?
A quick google suggests the updates mostly tweak rinse times and temperature settings, presumably based on data that wasn't available before the model shipped.
There's a good chance you're underestimating what a modern dishwasher does. They're fairly complex machines.
I would've hoped the current shortage of chips can put an end to this and 5G perma-surveillance, but here we are ...
Edit: not to speak of "We've detected remnants of the XYZ strain of the <whatever> virus; please isolate yourself now. This message has been passed on to the ministry of health and education. Thanks for your cooperation."
I love vids like this - as its a good thing to have an understanding of how all things around you work.
Also, There are two ltypes of dishwasher owners: Those who pre-rinse things that fgo in and those who dont.
I ALWAYS pre-rinse everything. there are times when I use the dishwasher as a dish-rack and wash things by hand and just put them into the open dish-washer to dry... I prefer this to having anything on the counters.
---
I have a set of LG washer/dryer which are wifi capable...
I have yet to find a reason to connect them, even though I have a wifi extender node plugged into the same power as the washer.
I do have "smart" lightbulbs in every socket in the house and can control them all with alexa and/or the Feit app...
I use it all the time, and like to be able to set every single light in the house to whatever color I want. So Ill often set the lights to "Firebrick" which is the most calming at night.
https://www.smarthomeexplained.com/alexa-smart-light-color-n...
and I like to say "Alexa set all lights to firebrick" and every single bulb in the house and porch turn red....
But I guess Ill have to connect the washer and drier to wifi and see what added value I might find there...
FYI this is also a great vid by that guy on power plugs.
The more interesting question is who, in the bowels of the manufacturer's corporate headquarters, determined that this feature added value, how was it priced, and what, if anything was done after the fact to assess whether the additional cost was justified?
I'm not going to attack people that feel like a smart dishwasher is useful for them, just that, it's not for me.
I do have a smart thermostat, but I don't pay its annual subscription fees because I don't use the features it enables. I do appreciate its daily temperature, humidity, and heating graphs though.
I'm glad that I have around 20 year old Bosch dishwasher. It has one button and one knob and it doesn't beep.
For home automation I sometimes would like to add a lowest quality webcam pointed towards lights to see if it has finished. But not for the dishwasher - it always takes the same time and is quick enough. It could be useful for the washing machine, but not enough for me to care.
Maybe the firmware is important for the dishwasher though, but it should still function without it. I imagine a dystopian future where some society fails for some reason and internet stop being reliable. So much of our technology is dependent on it to work.
It could be war, it could be solar winds or even more likely that the manufacturer goes out of business and closes down their servers.
This is just pretty bad and I think most of us can agree. Nothing will ever change though since you pretty much don't know about this until it happens to you.
They actually reposted it 8 hours ago
Just a matter of time until happens to a lot of other appliances.
I wonder if it’s trying to connect to wifi or something. I miss my old one where I could just push the start button.
It would have been trivial for them to flash a light or start the countdown (it has a timer display). But no; just sits there silently for a while.
I certainly have zero intention of ever buying a new car again either. I hope to be buried with my late 90's/early 2000's "dumb" cars :p
here are the two gems that make me fume: https://www.onstar.com/us/en/support/smart-driver
How often is data collected from the vehicle? Smart Driver data is collected by OnStar from the vehicle upon every ignition cycle.
How are my scores calculated? After your trip is complete, we look at the factors above and apply a proprietary scoring algorithm used to assess driving behavior. The scores by trip can vary widely. For example, a longer trip with one mild hard brake would score much better than a very short trip with a more abrupt hard brake. Daily, weekly and monthly scores use the same factors, but use somewhat different scoring algorithms. Daily scores consider things that trip scores don’t, like how many trips the driver took and miles he or she drove over the entire day. Trip scores may vary. Monthly scores are the most reliable indicators of how drivers are doing on their driving behaviors.
I agree about new cars though.
Why the heck does a dishwasher need firmware updates?
Why in the flying heck does a D I S H W A S H E R need to be on WiFi?Also no capacitive touch or press and hold BS. I want heavy duty physical switches and buttons. As few chips as possible. No way in hell am I letting it connect to my wifi. I want steel, I want access panels.
Samsung? Do any other appliance manufacturers play a long tune at the end of the cycle? My washing machine and dryer both play the same tune. I'm used to it, but it was jarring at first.
Some months ago, we bought a new kitchen sink faucet, liking the handsfree feature (on/off by waving in front of a sensor). Of 2 possibilities, the salesman pushing for the on w/ a smart controller with wifi, saying we wouldn't ever have to use the wifi, and it was $50 cheaper. And he didn't mention the existence of the branded a/c adapters for the faucet, and misled somewhat about the nature of the warranty (the lifetime part doesn't cover the electronics--those are covered for 5 years which seems reasonable enough I guess).
Turned out that it requires 6 or 8 size D(? large, pricey) battery cells which ran down in ~5 weeks. Due to a bug(?) or design problem, the cold water got stuck in "open" mode when the batteries died, and could not be turned off except by shutting off all cold water to the faucet. Replacing batteries, etc etc didn't help. The manufacturer said yes there was also another bug, due to wifi not being set up, it was constantly probing for a network, and ran down faster. The only way to fix it was to connect to wifi, or get a new controller. They (Moen) were repeatedly very competent and helpful on the phone, understood why I preferred not to connect it to wifi in my case, and sent us a new controller with the fix, under the warranty. The local salesman however, after long discussion and not super-happily, allowed us to get the other sensor model with no smart controller box, and days later, to return the old faucet for the full original price. (Moen provided a return shipping label for the unused replacement controller box.)
We have been happy with the new/simpler sensor model, which seems to have neither of the bugs of the first one (Moen said that in this one, a capacitor saves enough power to turn off the water, in case the batteries die while the water is running). Takes just something like 2 AAA batteries which last a long time, working very nicely.
My wife points out that the the simpler model actually did turn out to be significantly less expensive, and we had to have a plumber come for something else right at the same time so they did the faucet swap then and the total cost difference was about a wash. We were grateful that it turned out well in the end. I would probably buy from Moen again, considering, but would read online more at their site about the product, and listen to the salesman somewhat less.
I work IT, and while the automated hardware can be useful, it's not when it forces updates with magically bad timing.
I "used" to play games on a playstation, but not often enough... so every time I wanted to play it and had the time to... it needed some playstation update right now, and the time afforded to play was lost. Hello Steam. Nord VPN seems to need required reboot updates near weekly. I always ponder that the updates have to be less a required fix and more of a marketing related update.
Did you know most cars have a cell modem in them and send "home" the can-bus data so that the car makers can see how parts from xyz corp are working out for them.
Does the dish washer listen for people talking about it and how it's used? What does it send home?
In the future, nothing will be fixed because of the incredible complexity of software and the lack of printed manuals. A whole generation of devices will disappear into a black hole. But for a brief period, there was a lot of shareholder value.
I'm confused why tech people like lovecruft still pick the models who have whacky wifi integrations and stuff. For me it seems obvious they are a huge burden in the long term.
1. Get a technology proven to have solved a given problem more than 100 years ago.
2. Throw ICs on top of it.
3. Put “smart” into marketing materials.
4. …
5. Profit
There is nothing in any dishwasher[0], fridge, vacuum cleaner, washing machine, ${you_name_the_home_appliance} that would require to be smarter than they are without those (actually far from smart) hardware and software that is being installed and imposed on customers. If combined with the planned obsolescence[1] it creates a perfect combo.
They are imposed, because dumb equipment is getting harder to find. You can't buy a dumb TV any more. It'll soon be the same with dishwashers and washing machines.
Incidentally, I don't want a smart machine with a 90's mode; that gives you all the complexity and unreliability of a smart machine.
I've heard that industrial-grade clothes washers are reliable. My toaster is a Dualit, and has no electronics - the timer is clockwork. This is industrial-grade - it's pitched at people running a bar or cafe (and priced accordingly). No planned obsolescence, and it's held together with screws - it's eminently repairable, and spares are available.
I'm prepared to pay for stuff that is un-smart.
FWIW, you can.
New dumb TVs are marketed as "digital signage" and sold to businesses at a much higher price point.
This one comes with Windows 10; that's not quite what I mean by "dumb". It appears to really be a "smart" non-TV.
Again, it's a fucking dishwasher. Stack dishes. Press button. Wash dishes. It absolutely does not need a bloody algorithm trying to force you the owner into anything. The idea is absurd, and seeing so many defenses of convenience for such pushy, prying things is as well on the same site where so many people also frequently complain about our worrisome surveillance capitalism/corporatism future of constant user tracking and tech lock-in and siloing.
If some people can't even easily stomach the notion of washing dishes without dubious software updates and data hoarding algorithms, so many other, more serious parts of digital independence are well sold to hell down the road.
"we’ve let nerds go too far"
They -- the consumers -- are not blaming marketing or executives. No. They are blaming people who should know better, but allow this particular brand insanity to evolve.
And in 90s mode, the appliance must still be able to do all the things it could do in the 90s.
There has been exactly one useful innovation in non-computer appliances since 1999, and that is backup cameras on cars.
I don't think any major appliance manufacturer has done any serious amount of work to figure out what those patterns are, or how they might apply them. They just want to add software so they can extract additional values from their customers by collecting data to sell.
https://twitter.com/pettycashstash/status/148816796997279744...
Dumb cars that are spotted on the highway without matching digital footprints will be confiscated on the spot.
http://web.archive.org/web/20141211083710/http://www.ridgene...
Even if you can skip this (Looking at you too, Bosch) it doesn't matter, it shouldn't even be there, and a dishwasher has no business to be on the internet.
I've repaired most of my appliances multiple times. Most recently my Kenmore Series 70 dryer. Very satisfying. Should last another decade, easily.
All my pre-CPU appliances are simple and obvious. Really seems like low hanging fruit. Only challenge is sourcing correct parts.
what's next? not able to use toilet paper until you download an app ?
ps: they're all android one ( meaning, no extra editing of the OS from the constructor )
My bed has an app. Because of course it does. The bed logs sleep (and, presumably, other activities) and then sends all the data to the manufacturer. I don't want it to do this, so I explicitly opt out in the app. The problem is that it keeps asking and there isn't a good way to permanently disable the creepy behavior.
Back to the attempted murder - last week, I opened the app to adjust the bed (the head and foot of the bed can move) but because of crappy app design, there isn't a way to set myself as the default person when the app is opened. I had to deal with the privacy setting reminder again and in my frustration with it, I ended up changing my wife's side of the bed instead of my own. Frustrated, I try to cancel by tapping another preset position, but then realize that this preset is going to move both sides at once, so I then tapped the physical button on my wife's side to make her side go back to a different preset position. And yes, my internal model of whatever state the bed is in was now thoroughly confused.
Anyway, nothing new happened. The bed continued moving to the first (unwanted) position, then it stopped completely. I tried the physical button again and nothing happened, and the app wasn't working either, so I went to check that the power cable didn't accidentally come loose, with a plan to unplug the controller and plug it back in again if there wasn't a loose wire.
The problem was, the control box was beneath the (very, very heavy) bed. Thankfully it's easy to access the controller when the head of the bed is up - there is a bunch of empty space where the mattress normally would be. So I half-climbed in to the bed to check the power cable, and that's right at the point where the bed decided it had had enough of the human interfering with its utility function of providing optimal sleep at all times and decided to solve the problem by lowering itself on my neck.
It's relevant to note here that the bed in question is not some wimpy somnolence aid. No! This thing is designed to hoist two human bodies up to 350lbs (each!) into a sitting position. While it takes around 4500 Newtons to snap a neck, it takes much less force to compress the carotid artery and deflate the windpipe - in this task (unlike remembering my privacy settings), the bed was peerless.
I was first annoyed, then concerned, then serious panic set in when I realized that I (a 6'2 human male) wasn't able to fend off my assailant. I yelled, shoved, panicked and shoved some more. Only after several scary seconds did I finally realize that I could cut the power by yanking out the cord in front of me. Getting myself disentangled gave me a long scratch on my arm (first blood goes to the robots!) and a loss of much of my pride, but soon after I reveled in my victory - the first skirmish in what will be known to future generations as the Machine wars.
It probably says something about me that, even as I recount this story, the fact that the bed tried to kill me isn't the worst feature that I'd mention in a review. I'm genuinely more bothered by the constant nagging privacy settings screen in the app. Small, constant irritations seem to be worse than single, (albeit large) failure modes that seldom occur.
Anyway, I need to end this here. It's almost 7am and the coffee maker gets angry if I don't stick to the schedule it created for me.
One can argue whether such a feature is actually worth having in a fridge (Added costs, security risks, complexity...) But at least it has a valid use case: notification.
I just can't imagine a dishwasher having such a use case. Notification for when it's done isn't useful. If I'm not home it makes no difference that it's done, and if I am home it could just beep. Starting it obviously isn't useful either. So what features does wifi offer in a dishwasher? The best I can think of is... Error diagnostics (So I don't have to google "E5" when the flood sensor triggers). But that doesn't seem like enough of a feature to warrant a wifi connection.
And expect the user to return to the house in the middle of work to close the fridge door? Why can't the fridge close its own door if it is so smart? And if it can, then why does it still need Wi-Fi?
In contrast to the case of a TV, you may want to buy the smart thing and not connect it. Because since all decent TVs now are smart TVs, chasing a much worse and/or much more expensive TV to avoid smart features in 2022 is usually going to be a really expensive way of buying a really poor TV (Such as a commercial panel, computer monitor, or low end TV - all bad TVs). Then it's better to just buy the smart TV you want and plug in an external source and just not use the smart features.
But with a dishwasher there is still a wide selection of dumb dishwashers. And if we keep buying those, that will be the case tomorrow too.
I just renovated my whole kitchen, and all the appliances that had the features I wanted also had wifi connectivity. I basically had no choice but to buy them with it, other than giving up other features. I haven't, however, allowed any of them to connect to my wifi.
The impending next-generation devices that will come with their own embedded 3G/4G antennae are going to pose a whole new set of problems.
Manufacturers do already build in dead-man switches into some products, and the more that do this, the more this becomes a problem because then even disabling an antenna will not work. It would be down to requiring custom firmware for a device.
This is an area right-to-repair legislation could address and prevent this.
And if they let you use it if the antenna is intact (tamper sensing cover for it, maybe?) but without service, then you just need a low power RF noise generator right beside it.
1) Why would I want to hook my dishwasher to the internet?
2) Is the dishwasher firmware FLOSS?
3) Has anybody ported Linux to the dishwasher MCU?
4) Has anybody ported DOOM to the dishwasher MCU?
5) Is the dishwasher spying on me via built in microphone?
Yes, the freaking light bulbs themselves needed to reboot... we've come too far.
Also, dishwashers are a scam, but that's a different ~~rant~~ topic.
if their longevity depends on WiFi and is not mentioned in the manual, get your money back.
You will own your appliances as much as you own your spotify subscription.