An 8-year-old slid his handwritten book onto a library shelf | Hacker News Reader

An 8-year-old slid his handwritten book onto a library shelf

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342 pointsTruffleLabs79 comments

My elementary school had a unit (I think in third or fourth grade) where each student made and illustrated a book, which was then bound by the librarians and temporarily added to the school library's collection, on a special shelf (for books by current students). Other students could check it out during the school year, and I think there was even an assignment where you were expected to check out one other student's book and give some kind of report or presentation about it!

At the end of the year, you got your own book back to keep.

This was a really great school project.

This is great, they should have more projects in school that allow kids a chance to move from being passive participants in the system to being contributors to it. I think this is a huge mental barrier that gets reinforced in schools rather than broken.

Reminds me a little bit of a mobile development class where the teacher had everyone post an app on the play store. A few of them were pretty good.

should have done that in iOS and watch them all get rejected.

My school has a similar custom. Only the students are older (typically in their 20s) and the books are called "dissertations". Oddly, despite being in the library, and the students spending a long time writing them (often years), few people want to read the books.

On the other hand, to those who did need them, they were potentially invaluable.

Well those are supposed to be nonfiction, that always is less popular than fiction

>> supposed to be

Unfortunately, there's been a general decline in reading comprehension since the '50s. Things that would have been understood to be fiction are now read as unironic fact. Backwoods literalist christianity and backwoods literalist islam burst on the scene at around the same time that academia embraced a malformed version of deconstructionism. Back in the 90s we were so sick of irony we just wanted it to die. Turns out this is how it happened.

My primary school’s library included books written by students of any grade, and kept them at least while the students were still at the school, along with dozens of the best ones from further back. The whole endeavor was called the school library “publishing house”.

Students at school who wanted to could write a book (typically 3–10 pages, but occasionally longer), and the handwritten or typed document with line art would be xeroxed 3 times then each copy would be colored by the student, laminated, and spiral bound, with one copy sent home, one to the classroom, and one to the school library. All of the student authors would get to go to a ceremonial “authors’ tea”, held a few times each year.

It was optional but a great experience and some kids enjoyed it so much they “published” several books a year. Others only did it once during primary school, or not at all.

This was all back in the time when schools had enough budget to fund a full-time school librarian who could organize such a project. I don’t think it has continued down to today.

I think that -- even at that age -- the whole project would merely have rendered me more cynical than I was even then. Some smart girl had decided to accuse me of plagiarism for a Halloween-themed story assignment I had turned in (it was "too original").

In junior-high, I had convinced the band conductor to devote 20 minutes (in sacrifice to the sehr verehrter Herr James Swearingen) to a reading of a composition I had written for that ensemble. Hearing someone whose name or face I didn't know whistle one of the trite themes I contrived instilled in me an aeternal question mark: was that mocking or camaraderie?

Later, as an undergraduate, I awoke to hear some vandals (one of which was claimed to be the offspring of Frank Zappa -- as if that that put him on the order of a C.P.E Bach) demur to hurl paint on my door because he heard my sting quartet at workshop ("no dude, he's cool, did you hear...").

One may as well convince others of your worth by means of buying companies (a ls Musk) or by hurling interstellar bottles into space, only to suffer the heat-death.

The saddest, most devastating thought that has ever occurred to me is that despite Voyager's drift, the genius of J.S. Bach will ultimately be erased.

This comment is mensa-syndrome on overdrive.

It's a book project, if it makes you cynical and go on a diatribe about Bach, you may need to chill down a bit.

Maybe it's their book project, written right here.

When my daughter was four she wrote an illustrated book and had it published on Amazon. It sold three copies. Dad, grandma and her uncle.

This would sux so hard for me. I could not draw at all. Having to have illustrated book publicly available would be major stressor for me.

This reminds me of how instrumental just going to the library was as a kid for my love of reading. It was the only place that was like a store to me at the time where I could have anything I wanted. It felt like a fun challenge to find as many books that I might want to read as possible.

I wonder how we can create this experience more easily remotely. There are tons of library eBook apps that are all pretty awesome, but discovery of new content just isn't the same. I find myself going to the library still. Or even to book stores to write down interesting looking titles.

I know this seems like a boring problem because you can just go in person then put a hold on the eBook version while you are there. But there has to be a way to present a curated selection of books that inspires children to:

- enjoy the adventure of finding a good book

- fosters the idea that reading unlocks knowledge or stories about anything they want

- makes the process of sampling a book as easy as it is on Amazon, or in person

Why? When schools are remote, or to serve children that don't have a local anything nearby.

Does anyone know of services that provide this now or have any ideas for how this would best work as an enhanced UI over say Libby or overdrive, or even hoopla all of which are great for if you already know what you want to read.

Take the kid to a physical library a few times. I think the visceral experience of the vastness really has to be experienced by our spatial-relation lizard-brains. Explain the "anything you want, but only a few at a time" concept. Nurture the kid-in-a-candy-store wonder.

Then take them to the most impressive library you can feasibly drive to. Universities spring to mind. Let that awe really sink in. See if you can get a librarian to talk to the kid for a few minutes about why _they_ personally think this is important.

THEN introduce ebooks, gutenberg, archive.org, apps, etc. All that and then some, right here in the palm of your hand.

I think you are highlighting great ways to impress upon a kid the: "visceral experience of the vastness." Which is the core of what I want. That's a really good way to put it by the way.

I really like the idea of taking kids to really impressive libraries as well. My parents did that for me and it really did create lasting memories.

But I am more thinking of something that can emulate that experience remotely. Your focus on the space made me thing of maybe a library on Minecraft or Roblox? Maybe it can be a space where you can somehow see the books in a virtual space and design something that allows you to explore the collections. I know this would be really hard in Minecraft and I don't know how hard this would be in roblox. But I really like this idea because it would be easy to create, easier to maintain, and be a really cool thing that a teacher could say take a class trip to.

It would be important that you where presented with a way to checkout the books you found in this virtual library from a real library near you that has ebooks for children. This would also allow you to checkout the public works books from the awesome sites you referenced instantly.

Maybe something like this (aimed more at journalism, but the virtual space is still impressive): https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/18/21184041/minecraft-librar...

This looks really cool and is exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. I will explore it later after work.

Thank you for linking this.

Oh oh oh.

I think you mean https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/articles/360054148012-Brow...

This is exactly the kind of tool I was hoping to find. Thank you!

I wasn't really expecting to be having novel ideas here and as usual someone built something close and someone on hackernews can tell me about it.

This service isn't perfect and doesn't seem very kid friendly to me. But it exists and is free so it's something to learn from and recommend.

One of my defining memories looking around universities as a 16/17-year-old was going to their libraries and being overwhelmed with how much knowledge there was there. Shelves that showed the parallax in the rooms, where books went off into the distance and motion-activated lights. As an undergraduate, I worked extensively in an underground library -- isolated from the world, isolated from anything but my tasks at hand, and with all the knowledge one could conceivably want if you could find it effectively (or, at least, that's how it felt).

Libgen.rs may have an unimaginably larger number of titles on offer, but it's not quite the same as walking into a cathedral-size store of books and looking at the weight of humanity's greatest achievements staring back at you. Libraries are awesome. We should support them, and keep supporting them, as much as possible.

I couldn't agree more. I have 0 desire to replace or limit libraries. They are some of few places where you can feel the progress of humanity in a physical space.

I just want to allow people who can't access libraries easily to experience some of that.

I don't think that is possible (to re-create that feeling of awe) on a single screen computer. Perhaps some VR room, but then again most people do not have such special hardware.

What I can see might be useful is a traditional Web space that creates a lesser but similar "flavor" of the awe by showing plenty of book titles while letting you navigate in different directions like you would wonder along the shelves in a physical library. At least such a low tech Web version can be consumed from less than wealthy countries.

Now people at that age are used to having all of that information at their fingertips and for free.

They say that this ease of information is causing physical changes in how our brains operate.

Everyone says they're awesome while at the same time pointing out that the digital services are far superior in terms of scalability, quantity, searchability, etc.

It seems the one things libraries have going for them versus digital services is the emotional effect that these physical places have on us. That doesn't bode well for libraries long term.

Big thing libraries also have is books that haven't been digitized. There are so many great works that simply cannot be found online.

Discoverability in libraries is better, and difficult to replicate in an online setting I've found. When I found a book through the online database, I would go to get it and almost always the other books on the shelf or nearby shelves were also relevant to my research. But most of these books didn't show up in the results of my initial queries, so I would not have found them without the physical library.

Unfortunately, the libraries I went to, have drastically shrunk their accessible physical collections in favor of keeping most books in storage.

I don't think anything compares to going in person.

I'm father of a 4 year old, and we live a couple of blocks from the library. Seeing how his interactions with the shelves has changed over the past couple of years has been really interesting. At first it was enough to look at the covers and spines, then he could pull himself up to the bins of board books, and eventually started grabbing from the shelves himself.

And like you, he loads up with a little bit of everything (it doesn't matter what he chooses, we check it out) and we take it home to read and see what sticks.

It's probably no surprise that one of the most exciting trips he can make is driving to PDX to go to Powell's.

There's probably a UI genius out there with great ideas for it, but I don't see how anything can beat going to a library in person.

I completely agree. I don't think you can fully replicate this experience remotely.

I am just trying to imagine what you need to do to get as close as possible. Maybe I make this a project happen if I end up with something actionable. Maybe these ideas inspire someone else, maybe they fade away into memories and do very little.

I love the it doesn't matter what you choose you can check it out part. I think it would be really important to have a filter where all the books the kid can see, the kid can have right now. This of course could be disabled by older kids that understand sometimes there is a wait but I think for the younger kids this would be an important detail.

I don't want to replace libraries, I want to make it so every kid that has access to the internet on some device or gaming platform can get 30% of that experience. Or whatever is possible.

Yeah between the “take whatever you want” and the sensory experience of seeing and touching and opening books of different sizes, textures, thickness, etc it’s mind blowing to try to replicate.

Just something as simple as having books shelved higher than you head and getting to use a stool to get up to them - that makes finding books so fun!

The more I think about it, the physical is just so important to the experience. I guess it’s for this same reason I hate ebook versions of picture books. The interaction just cannot match what you get to do with a real book.

Not to say this isn’t a worthy goal or interesting problem-every kid should have an awesome library nearby. Just wow, going in person is amazing.

The internet is much better than a library. I've gone to the library a handful of times and the information there typically pales in component to the information that can be found on the internet. The internet also has videos too which can help explain concepts. Books in a library are typically old too. Good luck finding a book about some new piece of software that came out.

Sure, I don't go to libraries to find anything about code or even computers. I go to find old fantasy series and enjoy the physicality of the library.

I would say the internet is almost always better at everything non-fiction for adults. But I am talking about 4-8 year olds here mostly, and by extension anyone older that wants some of the library experience.

The tactile experience of a library or even a bookstore cannot be replicated by the internet or ebooks.

It is indeed something wondrous for little kids... and adults.

Really, the libraries' contents are just a significantly more difficult-to-search part of the deep web.

I've found the opposite: it's often even hard to find out that some piece of knowledge might exist on the Internet.

I think it might(?) be better for math and things like that, but dig into social sciences or history or whatever, and often at a surprisingly shallow level you're going to have to go find some real books. eBooks fill some of the gap, but lots aren't there. Some stuff is rare (very niche) and can't even be found in newly-printed books, let alone online—used books and libraries are it. Some special collections—again, without even digging that deep, sometimes—become necessary and would require international travel to pursue (depending on where you live).

It's not hard to poke around a decent used book store or university library and find information that's simply nowhere online.

> often at a surprisingly shallow level you're going to have to go find some real books.

Google scholar + sci-hub is astoundingly deep.

Plenty of rare old books can’t be found online, but there are also plenty which can if you learn where to look and spend some time hunting.

Why would you limit yourself to the information that is on the internet when the vast majority of the world's information (and music, and video, etc.) is elsewhere?

because I'm not interested in that information

How do you know if you haven't seen it?

This is one of those "pure HN" comments that you're almost guaranteed to find here.

How can we take a genuinely pleasant, analog human experience, strip all of the magic out of it, automate it, and make it remote?

Your comment made me sad to read. I don't really feel like that's a fair take at all.

I love libraries and the experience they provide. These memories are core to who I am today.

For me this is about access. I want every kid who doesn't live near a library or who's parents don't have the time to take them there to have something more than nothing.

I don't think that we can make it remote without taking a lot of the magic out of it. But I don't think it's a bad idea to talk about what we might do to try.

I don’t think that’s a fair portrayal of it. Rather, it’s a matter of observing that people are using the digital more because of certain advantages it has, and trying to think up ways of mitigating its disadvantages.

For a similar sort of thing, take the example of paper versus digital Bibles. For the last couple of hundred years until recently, almost everyone who cared about the Bible would have what I call a primary Bible; this helps immensely with memory and comprehension, especially spatial. Recently, many people have shifted to digital Bibles. I think this is terrible; very little software even pretends to be designed for reading (study is the typical focus, not that they do that well either), and none of it is; so I say no Bible software is suitable for use as a primary Bible. So I’ve been planning Bible software for the last few years, to answer the situation by seeking to get the best of both worlds, in significant part so that people that insist on eschewing the paper can have a less harmful option—though I think that it’s possible to reach a stage where I personally would switch from my increasingly-decrepit paper RSV.

The fact of the matter is that we have a habit of turning analogue experiences into half-hearted digital experiences, implementing the simple parts but ignoring the hard parts. Don’t complain because people are seeking to digitise more of the analogue experience, but rejoice when people contemplate the hard parts.

Self-host libgen [1]. Then run https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web or https://www.kavitareader.com/#home over the top.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21692222

Quite different, but with a similar sense of discovery: Listening/watching to Harold Bloom or some other literary pundit or author, I scribble the mentioned titles down to look up and download later.

I still regularly go to a library and take random books off the shelf and read them in the branch.

It's silly and paranoid, but I want to know some things without a record existing.

No web browser, or online payments.

It doesn't even need to be anything interesting. I just want to have some skills/knowledge with no documented evidence

My son did this to a book he wrote. Something about a moose... He slid it onto the shelf at the school library, and found a year later that some employee had put on a library sticker and a checkout card. A couple people checked it out; it was still on the shelf a few years later.

My son used to put his books on our shelves. Imagine if I had encouraged him rather than working silly hours for some future that never arrived

Chris Rock said it best--Nobody ever says, 'Hey daddy, thanks for knockin' out this rent.' 'Hey daddy, I sure love this hot water.' 'Hey daddy, it's easy to read with all this light.'

Kids shouldn't have to thank their parents for the basics. That's what we commit to when we bring them into this world (or adopt them). To use another Chris Rock phrase - "You want credit for some s*** you're supposed to do?!"

Yes buy the same token we should teach our kids that getting decked out from top to toe in branded apparels isn't normal or given. Nor is having an iPhone for that matter.

It is normal if most kids have it. Not sure what you’re trying to teach them.

Teaching them the value of a dollar.

Why? You either have it or you don't. Teach them to be relatable, the answer to “the price of a gallon of milk” or what most people earn a year, to pretend like “they got a deal on rent” when around their struggling friends. But there is literally no need to waste your time in that rat race out of pride, only out of necessity.

Its just not worth it from a time and lifestyle perspective.

I'm not following your comment. My kids don't have to pay rent.

Kids need clothes replaced every year, (more if they hit a growth spurt), and where we live we have "short sleeve" weather, and "long sleeve" weather. Which means they need two sets every year. They also need specialty items as well: winter jackets/boots, and rain jackets/boots which need to be purchased, every year. Buying higher end name brands gets costly quick, when other alternatives exist.

Iphones are expensive, and kids are not (generally) good with keeping track of their things. Phones are prone to breaking, being stolen, or being lost, and at $500+ a pop, it gets expensive quickly.

For my family--phones, and nice clothes are in the realm of gifts. Not for everyday purchases.

To be able to critically, objectively evaluate decisions even in the face of overwhelming conformity.

I’ll say this—it’s not always easy bringing home the bacon/keeping the lights on.

I live in King County WA, and housing prices here have made owning a home impossible for anyone who isn't a doctor, lawyer, or median software engineer.

Outside real-estate, grocery prices are continuing to rise, schools are struggling to stay open, bus routes are being canceled, and there is nearly no affordable childcare options.

Yes, my job is to provide for my children, but at times it's real a struggle, and while I don't expect my kids to tell me thanks for giving them a basic life, I tell myself that the sacrifices I make are ultimately for their best interest.

Yes, I also don't expect any thanks from my kids for providing them the things that they need, as well as a happy and fulfilling time

What I have started trying to do more is getting all of us to acknowledge what we are grateful for — food on the table, the times we have fun, our brothers and sisters, our tidy home. This stops it from becoming about thanking me (which I find odd and unnecessary) and about appreciating what we are lucky enough to have

The perfect parent doesn't exists, my friend. We all do our best to provide and sometimes it works out the way we expect, sometimes not. Count your successes, not your failures.

What a nice story!

When they create an ebook, be prepared for the next HN story to discuss Dillon's book being the most pirated pdf worldwide.

This is why I've supported 826LA (and the other 826 chapters), started by the author Dave Eggers. Among the reading and writing, tutoring and college essay writing programs they sponsor, mostly focused on kids who are in homes where English is a second language, they also help kids publish their own book.

You would be shocked to see how proud the kids are when they have their very own words, in print - it's whimsical and inspiring that they can accomplish anything.

There's a nonprofit edtech startup called Story Shares [1] that gives students the chance to publish their stories for other kids to read. They just wrapped up an open call a few days ago, and the top stories will be put into their catalog.

1: https://www.storyshares.org/

I would love it if my local library had a section dedicated to local amateur authors. I want my boys to see that being an author is not some huge gap. You don’t need a fancy book making machine or publisher. Just write and share.

Just write in notepad.exe and share on IPFS (it is very easy, much easier than other ways of publishing on the web) then share that link online.

I am in the process of editing a book each my kids are writing (boy! chasing authors for deadlines is a thankless task). The idea is to self-publish on Amazon later on.

This is probably the best thing I have read about all week. Fantastic.

My kids's school has creating a book a part of the curriculum every year beginning in kindergarten. My son who's amazingingly prolific did two books last year (he was in first grade). There was one day when he was in kindergarten that we were both writing at the same time. I managed to get a couple hundred words written on my novel in progress. He knocked out a 750-word story (dictated to his mother) that was damned amazing.

Is anyone working on a VR-based library simulator?

Sounds so cool to browse the Project Gutenberg library in VR. You could slip in fun additions like this as easter eggs.

Self publishing at its finest. What a great story!

Haha, so cool! If 6 year olds like it and there's already a waiting list, he might even sell the story to Hollywood. ;)

I really hope it doesn't get to money making but instead it starts a new trend where kids make their own books and share them at the library, a new special section. Let's leave money outta this..

I knew this kind of remark was coming, hence the smiley. ;)

I seem to recall that Dillon's parents are taking the process slowly of creating an ebook, etc. My takeaway is that they want their child to not be overwhelmed/overtaken by the interest in him and his work (does this make sense?).

Librarians are some of the most outstanding folks we have. This is such an adorable story.

paywall free: https://archive.is/nyf78

They should digitize it and put the ebook up on Amazon.

From the article:

> Hartman is talking with Dillon’s mom about possibly creating an e-book version of “The Adventures of Dillon Helbig’s Crismis” to share.

I love this. What a fantastic story, and what a wonderful kid.

“I also kind of think that he might become a librarian,” Hartman added. “We in libraries love stories and love to share them.”

I'm hoping the kid figures out ZIP files, HTML, and PNGs so he can compose an epub for wider distribution.

It's Banksy Jr.

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