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Comment by duxup | Hacker News Reader

Kinda weird.

If a rando retail person pulls out their iPhone and asks me to tap... that's kinda strange in my mind. Something about "how do I know that isn't their personal phone?" would pop in my head.

But things that seem awkward can become commonplace.

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When I pay with cash, I don't usually worry that the salesperson will put it in their own pocket. If they choose to be dishonest, that's between them and their employer.

I agree - you'd hope that retailers would use cases or accessories that say "this is not a personal phone". I think I've seen employees at big retailers like Best Buy carry around devices that look like smartphones but have ergonomics more suited for retail (large black cases, belt holsters, attached receipt printer, etc.).

Like a work uniform, it doesn't really serve any immediate purpose but it gives the transaction authenticity.

Yeah even a funky case would kinda change that perception I think.

> how do I know that isn't their personal phone?

Why would that be a concern to you?

Either way you pay, get receipt, take your goods, and leave. It's not like you are stealing.

Are you worried the clerk would MITM your payment and leave you without normal return/refund policy, since it wasn't a legit transaction?

I'm less concerned about anything complex and more about just paying the right folks.

That's literally the job of the clerk, not you.

As someone who lives in a society, I'd say it's both the store and the customer's job to make sure the right people get paid.

The clerk is the store. Your obligation ends when the clerk has the money.

But how do you know the clerk works for the store? You don’t feel at all obligated to make sure they are actually the store?

From the way you are describing this, you seem distrustful of someone who walks up to you with a device, scans a barcode, shows you the price of said item which matches the tag in your hand, prints a receipt, accepts a tap as payment, let's you walk away with said item.

This flow summarizes almost every transaction I have had at Banana Republic, Gap, and the Apple Store, to name a few retailers. I have not had reason to distrust the clerk, disheveled or otherwise. Once I receive a notification from my credit card that an entity with the same name as the store has posted a transaction to my card, I walk out the door with my purchase. I have not once thought (or cared) about the store receiving the money once I am out the door.

What's the reason for the distrust?

My default is to distrust someone with nothing but what looks like a personal phone, until I'm sufficiently convinced that they are in fact who they say they are.

In every experience you describe, the device they use is not just a standard iPhone. It usually has a special case with a card scanner and reciept printer for starters. At the Apple store they wear apple badges and have branded clothing. I haven't been to the Gap in a long time, but I'm guessing they have some sort of way of identifying themselves. You even said yourself you wait for the notification that you were charged by the right entity name, which is another clue that you made a legit purchase.

I have no problem making my purchase from someone with nothing more than an iPhone, as long as there are other clues that they actually work there. But I do feel it is my responsibility as a member of society to at least attempt to verify their veracity.

I love the idea of some scammer setting up a fake POS in a store and checking out customers. They would probably try to blend in with the real staff and use legit looking gear.

- Our inventory system went down so I have to type in your total

- All set, it just automatically e-mails you the receipt

- (Who are you?) Corporate sent me, I'm in a different store everyday

This has probably been done before.

If a random disheveled looking person comes up to you in the middle of a store and says "I can take your cash and give you a receipt", and they they show you a legit looking receipt, do you feel that it would be ok to give them money and take the receipt?

Sure, it's the store's job to make sure people aren't impersonating their employees and stealing their receipt papers, so that's on them right?

That's exactly what they do at the Apple store, and they don't seem to be hurting for business

I never said the would be hurting for business, so I'm not sure how that's relevant.

That being said, the Apple store has security guards up front and it's generally a pretty small space where someone faking it would be noticed.

Even now, they can use a Square wireless terminal and you wouldn't know if its hooked up to their personal iPhone or what.

Absolutely true.... just seems like a mounted device like they usually are seem more 'official'.

Square and similar terminals aren’t mounted anymore - the vast majority I see these days are wireless wedges that use Bluetooth or some other wireless protocol.

There's a big difference between something that looks like a payment terminal and what appears to just be a personal mobile phone though.

I was working for a company that was working on this sort of device a couple years ago and that was definitely the feedback we received in early UX trials.

I pay for house cleaning via Venmo. I’ve also paid for some other work via Venmo including landscaping, tree service, and HVAC work. It’s all from small business owners who use their personal phones.

I tend to imagine most users of this feature will be individual owner-operators such as a seller at a farmer's market, so the distinction between their personal phone and a business POS terminal may be fuzzy to start with.

People use their personal phones with Stripe, Square, and Venmo. The only difference here is the lack of a terminal. It’s ultimately processed the same way.

I have to say this is the worst scam someone could consider pulling. Payment processors (of which you will need one to use this) do KYC and it wouldn't take long at all to get caught and tracked back to whoever is doing it.

The prime example I can think of where this makes sense is if you're going to get a haircut, it allows the barber to not need to buy a square attachment for the iphone they already have.

why does that question matter, at all?

The Apple system is not set up to skim either way, and if they have a good or service you want, just go through the motions. This is as secure as it gets.

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