It's fair to say that it's extremely difficult to prove manipulation, which makes it seem arbitrary. But, there's plenty of legal standards that require proving intent, not just action. That's a high bar, but it's not unreasonable or arbitrary
It's fair to say that it's extremely difficult to prove manipulation, which makes it seem arbitrary. But, there's plenty of legal standards that require proving intent, not just action. That's a high bar, but it's not unreasonable or arbitrary
Whether this flexibility is a problem or a virtue is another question. When the author calls for us to eliminate these flexible laws/norms, he's trying to formalize something quite vague. Even if that's possible I'm not sure it's desirable. Perhaps when it comes to millions of people living together in harmony, vagueness is a good thing.
If that is what charges of "manipulation" actually corresponded to in practice, then one could just punish the actual instances of deception, dishonesty, or withheld information (DD&WI). But, in fact, it's rather rare for people to object to DD&WI when it is used to support a position they agree with, and in these situations they essentially never call it "manipulation". (If your friend Bob withheld information to convince someone of a political position you strongly agreed with, can you imagine yourself saying "Bob manipulated him"? Of course not, because "manipulation" is understood to mean "...for something bad".) In other words, "manipulation" is only used as an additional charge, beyond DD&WI, for things we disagree with.
(One could argue that we correctly have laws that punish actions based on the action's impact, like attempted vs. completed murder, and that "manipulation" could be for when DD&WI is deployed effectively. But again, no one ever calls this "manipulation" when it's for something they agree with, and they never claim that effective DD&WI of this type should be punished more harshly than ineffective DD&WI.)
> Most laws are defined in relatively objective ways, so that society can truthfully say “no one is above the law”. Those who violate the law can be found guilty and punished, while others remain free....But most societies have also included a few less objective and more “flexible” offenses, flexible enough to let the powerful more arbitrarily punishment disliked parties.
If we all agree on the facts of how the word "manipulation" is used in practice, then mind-blight's first paragraph is at most asking that Hanson would be clearer that he is a linguistic descriptivist rather than a linguistic prescriptivist. That would be fair enough, but then mind-blight's second paragraph wouldn't make sense: Hanson's objection isn't that "manipulation" is hard to prove, it's that it's used exclusively in an outcome-dependent (i.e. hypocritical) way.
He's then calling for a measure that can be used objectively without ascertaining a person's intent. I actually think that's counter-productive and leaves you vulnerable to (for want of a better word) manipulation.
A person's intent matters and effects how you should interpret and respond to information they deliver. If I'm debating with someone, I want to know whether their intent is to 1) figure out the truth or try to reach consensus, 2) prove themselves right, or 3) just prove me wrong. 1 is fun, 2 is normal, and 3 is a troll. Whether they agree with me or not isn't relevant - their intentions very much are.
He's not conflating, he's just taking a different stance than you to linguistic prescriptivism vs. descriptivism.
> He's then calling for a measure that can be used objectively without ascertaining a person's intent. I actually think that's counter-productive and leaves you vulnerable to (for want of a better word) manipulation.
No, he's not. He never mentions intent in the post. He is calling for a measure that can be used objectively without ascertaining the actions outcome.
I might be an alien, but I do call this manipulation and I do so openly and loud enough to in fact did receive a lot of "counter attacks", just for insisting on truth and facts, which is indeed not normally welcome by any side in tribal wars.
And I rarely call this behavior out in those words in those situations.
Example? Vaccination. I am in the "political" camp of people, who think as much people as possible should get vaccinated against covid.
Still, when I see posts written that go: "there is no reason to not get vaccinated, they are totally safe" (meant especially to covid, but also in a general sense) and I respond, that "no, they are not total safe, there have been incidents of contaminated production batches for example and it is not 100% clear, that for young people there is individually more benefit than potential harm and no doctor ever advised of taking just any vaccination (there are many vaccinations with actual higher risks, only benefiting, when visiting certain areas)" than I have to word it very, very careful or face a shitstorm even here. As in their perception I fight then against their political cause - overcoming the pandemic with more vaccinations. While in my perception they try to reach their goals with lies, which I do not agree with, despite agreeing to the goal.
So yeah, if you would try something like that within the context of a very contested issue, I would definitely assume you're clandestinely trying to sabotage the discussion.
People mean different things, when they say they want to have a discussion guided by facts.
I mean it literal.
"there is no reason to not get vaccinated, they are totally safe"
And since this is factual wrong, I think it is very weird to assume that I would want to sabotage a discussion, when relativating absolutistic statements, that bring no benefit to any discussion. They only enforce groupthink. But this this rather the cultural default, which I am quite aware of.
I think this depends on both the position and the actual arguments that were used (or withheld).
To give a hypothetical example for Democrats in the U.S.:
- If Bernie Sanders were to information about the negative budgetary repercussions of his Medicare-for-all plan (I'm not claiming he has or hasn't; I'm just giving an example), many Democrats probably wouldn't consider that "manipulation" of the public.
- But if he were to withhold information about how Medicare-for-all would actually somehow benefit corporate interests/profits at the cost of taxpayers (again, I'm not claiming this; I'm just giving a hypothetical example), a lot of the same Democrats probably would consider that "manipulation" of the public.
Of course there are people who would behave the same way in both situations too, but my point is that there are lots that would behave differently.
And obviously this isn't to claim people have zero bias here, but I don't think that's particularly specific to "manipulation". People just have a bias against criticizing people whose conclusions they agree with in general, whether the accusation is one of manipulation, corruption, or something else.
I assert that Democrats who supported his plan would not use the word "manipulation" for this. Instead, the Democrats who criticized Sanders for this would only say he was deceptive or withheld info.
It's true that withholding of information can be manipulative. Either this definition left out how we are to judge this (and so failed to establish that it's "actually very clear") or you think you have a right to the private contents of my mind and 100% of the gains from trade.
> Would their definition forbid it
Our context is a discussion of good or bad norms. Technically you could want to live under bad norms.
For example, if I invest in a publicly traded company, I expect the company to be honest on their quarterly filings, but I don't expect to have access to all of their financials. If a company withholds pertinent information because they don't want to impact the stock price, that is manipulation. If they withhold the same information honestly believing it isn't significant to the stock price, that's not manipulation (though it may be incompetence).
Another example: If I target financially illiterate people with predatory loans, that is often manipulative. I'm deliberately targeting people who I wouldn't expect to be able to analyze repercussions of the loan, and I'm lying when I say it will be positive.
If I target financially illiterate people and give them credit cards that I believe are within their means, then I'm not being manipulative - even if some of those folks default or their lives are made worse by the loan.
Yeah, I think this is reasonable. IANAL but I have the impression that manipulations like these would go under "fraud" -- most debatably the last couple. The OP was about pressures to establish laws and norms that are more open to interpretations:
> we also seem to include some more flexible offenses, such as “brainwashing”, “propaganda”, “manipulation”, “deception”, “misinformation”, “harassment”, and “gaslighting”. Again the key is that these tend to be defined less in terms of what exactly was done wrong, and more in terms of a disliked result.
so I just wanted to object to a claim in this context that "manipulation" actually is open-and-shut. If I'm right that your last couple of examples are where "manipulation" leaves more discretion to enforcement than the "fraud" standard, then I don't think you're disagreeing much with the OP on this point (though probably you are on whether this discretion is excessive).
Is this bad faith in the techniques of the persuasion, or that the persuasion is being used in a malicious way?
For example, if I say something misleading (or omit a few facts) to encourage people to vote for an objectively good candidate, is that bad faith? The persuasion is using a dark pattern, but I've got good intentions.
On the other hand, maybe I have some objectively bad belief, and I openly and candidly try to persuade people of it. Is that bad faith?
I'd lean towards the former being "bad faith". I believe that free and candid discussion is the best mechanism to move society forward, and I think that more progress would be great. But there are people who would disagree, because it took a lot of work to get our society to its current state, and they want to prioritise conserving what we've already got.
> But there are people who would disagree, because <reasons>
That is an example of mental gymnastics to avoid classifying the thing they want to do as bad in their own view. They want to do something but they don't want to think of themselves as behaving in bad faith because they're a good person doing the right thing.
The energy requirememts for consistent sync are massive.