Comment by ej3 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ej3 | Hacker News Reader

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> As the salmon fisherman will tell you...

This is objectively false. Salmon populations are more often than not considered in decline. The fish haven't "figured it out". They marginally persist solely due to intensive management that plainly consists of atrocities for species less popular in the media [0][1], millions spent on fish ladder theatre, and hatcheries.

The dominant mechanism in support of the fisheries being hatcheries that are basically a strangely laundered welfare program for indigenous, sport and professional fishermen each to their licensed proportion.

If you live in the Dalles, and you don't know the Columbia basin damns are an ecological nightmare.. it's unconscionable.

Not to mention the displacement of indigenous peoples from important traditional regions, the complete loss of stochastic annual flows feeding nutrient cycles in the river... etc etc.

Im no eco-activist. I don't necessarily think removing the dams would improve anything for anyone at this point, but if we're going to advocate for doing things a better way in the future - let's be honest: dams are horrible. The dams on the Columbia will eventually result in no salmon, no matter how hard we try. It's inhospitable. They used to run all the way up the snake into Idaho. Into IDAHO. Never again.

It's ok to advocate for energy, and the things you believe in, but let's not be belligerent about it - be honest.

In the Astoria maritime museum (several years ago now) I remember reading a passage that was proud of "..taming the wild Columbia, and turning it into a beautiful series of lakes and streams to wonderfully facilitate shipping and recreation.."

Some hutzpah, to think we know what we're doing.

[0] https://www.audubon.org/news/the-corps-cormorants-and-cull [1] https://www.marinemammalcenter.org/news/response-to-columbia...

Just in case anyone who isn't from the PNW is wondering at the energy and number of replies OP has gotten about this:

Water quality and the salmon-centered river/stream ecosystem is, like, the local environmental thing everyone gets slammed with in school. Your biology class has you go look for arthropods. Your chemistry class has you go test for pH and dissolved oxygen and fertilizer contamination. Way more species (including plants) rely on the salmon than you'd guess but oh boy do you learn about it in a PNW school system.

And on the other side, the history of the dams is the history of the growth of the Northwest -- "your power is turning our darkness to dawn, so roll on, Columbia, roll on" is in the Washington state folk song and it's not even an aberration re: the region's folk songs / culture. ("Skagit Valley, Skagit Valley, / They would turn you to a mud pond / To run the Coca Cola coolers in Seattle, U.S.A.")

I just thought this would be interesting to contribute because I've found people from other regions sometimes have an ambient awareness more on the level of "Um, I guess there are fish in the water? And runoff seems bad?" and that just isn't possible for locals here, so that's why it's all somewhat heightened.

From South Louisiana, it's the same for us growing up only instead of a dam it's the offshore drilling. We learn about the ecology of the delta, then go cheer the Saints in their black and gold jerseys (Who dat!).

That's an interesting song in its own right. It was written under commission for the federal government by Woody Guthrie, and it was really about two of his favorite topics: improving the lives of workers and stopping fascism.

    "Now in Washington and Oregon you can hear the factories hum,
    Making chrome and making manganese and light aluminum
    There goes a flying fortress, to fight for Uncle Sam
    Spawned on the great Columbia by the big Grand Coulee dam"

"[Woody Guthrie's] 30 days at [the Bonneville Power Administration (the relevant hydroelectric institution)] is considered one of the single most productive bursts in his fruitful songwriting career."

https://www.bpa.gov/news/AboutUs/History/Guthrie/Pages/defau...

It's salmon all the way down!

> I don't necessarily think removing the dams would improve anything for anyone at this point

It's early days yet, but at least on the Elwha some of the signs are very promising: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/the-el...

I don't always express myself clearly, but I meant that in a more holistic sense. If you were to construct a Venn diagram of remove vs stay in the case of many of the dams in the Columbia river basin, it's hard to objectively weigh the costs and benefits without a perspective. Within that perspective is an implicit number of assumptions that fashion a bias.

The problem is the Columbia is immensely powerful, and as such it's impact on our society or environment with or without the dam create such a incomprehensible web of dependencies that it predicting the outcome would be akin to seeing the future. You can't.

The Elwha is an amazing story, but that dam was in disuse long before it was dismantled. The case for removing it was one-sided.

Back in middle school we went on a trip and saw them doing the deconstruction of the elwha dam. They were around halfway done. We stood on the banks and saw the process of the reservoir turning back into a river. There was around 50 feet of sediment with old flooded trees sticking out. It is hard to overstate the effects these dams have on nature. Seeing the photos of the elwha coming back to life is always awesome :)

Another problem of dams is the accumulation of heavy metals and other toxic sludge behind the dam itself (usually washes downstream in minimal quantities) and the deoxigenation of the watershed due to lack of flow.

On that note (interestingly and anecdotally) many of these dams are inundated with ash and sediment that should have flushed downstream from Mt St Helens!

The impact of these dams is just incomprehensible.

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