Comment by westoncb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by westoncb | Hacker News Reader

I feel like any kind of sleep tracking app could only make things worse for my own situation (which I'm guessing is not particularly uncommon), the root of which seems to be around making too much of a big deal about sleep, getting increasingly anxious as I fail to fall asleep, not being able to help but monitor whether I am falling asleep or not etc.

When I sleep best are the nights I forget to be concerned about it. Typically once something important comes up (job interview, date, etc.) I remember what a problem inability to sleep has been for me in the past, how it could ruin it all—then it might be another month or two where I'm unable to "forget," lay awake for hours concerned about being unable to sleep.

My intuition around tracking is that anything big enough to make a real impact you'd already be aware of. The further micro-optimizing feels good mostly 'cause you've opted into thinking in a framework of sleep optimization so it's goal accomplishment in that context, but probably not a big improvement strictly on a physiological basis.

(Or maybe I'm completely wrong and just grumpy I can't find a good solution to my sleep issues :)

The only thing that’s ever worked for me is being tired enough. Physically.

We’re built to move and are surprised that sitting in a chair all day leaves us feeling restless and on edge. Kinda silly when you think about it.

When I get enough exercise, sleep is easy. You close your eyes, are bored for 5 minutes, and then you’re asleep.

Without daily exercise? Forget about it. Tossing and turning, tapping my feet all night, can’t get settled, every little thing an annoyance.

I've experimented with this a fair bit, but my experience so far is: when I ramp up activity I see improvement in sleep, but once it becomes normal it doesn't help much. I also occasionally run into really annoying situations where I'll do some pretty heavy lifting during the day, then go to sleep knowing how important it will be for me to get rest that night—which creates the kind of self-awareness trap described above and I lay there for hours super tired but also kind of wired, tossing and turning.

Most of my experience with this has been relatively high intensity over ~1.5hrs though, not full days of physical activity (like I had with jobs in the past, landscaping or stocking groceries etc.)—but I don't have that much time to dedicate to it with the desk work I'm doing now.

Anecdotally, I find even dedicated heavy lifting (1-1.5 hours) does not improve my sleep but similar durations of high-intensity cardio (45 minutes+) heavily improve my sleep even comparing for differing work-related stress baselines. I alternate lifts/HIIT,Tabata and do this regularly (2+ years of 5-6/week workouts) and still have reduced sleep latency times compared to before dedicated regular work-outs. My job is 100% sedentary desk job as well. Dunno if that helps.

> ... but similar durations of high-intensity cardio (45 minutes+) heavily improve my sleep

I should definitely give this a try. I do long walks and strength training, but have been missing cardio. Thanks for the tip.

Normally I avoid playing armchair psychologist— I don’t even own an armchair, let alone any significant psychological training. However, I experience anxiety comorbidly with a broader condition I didn’t recognize until 40, and your cycle feels quite familiar. If it is anxiety, a therapist could likely help you implement some CBT exercises to quickly, drastically, and permanently address the symptoms, without drugs, in a finite number of sessions. Most of these common psychological maladies have online questionnaires that could give you a better sense. Just, you know, don’t do them right before bed:-) Good luck and apologies if the suggestion was presumptuous.

Echoing this, the GP comment was very familiar. I suffer from insomnia related to a mood disorder, and had tried the app approach. What worked best was some time with a psychologist using CBT & DBT methods. Note that DBT likely is only useful in certain circumstances, but CBT strategies will be useful to nearly everyone, and especially align with the type of person who reads this site.

I'd always poo-poohed counseling, but finding a good counselor who could offer more than a sympathetic ear was key. There are definitely great counselors, and a PhD isn't required, but I would recommend seeking out a psychologist. Especially if you are motivated and want to be involved with your therapy, a psychologist has the training and background to be exceedingly helpful. Note that this will cost more, but in my experience it is worth it.

Also note that you don't need to be crazy or suffering from any mental disorder for them to be helpful. Think of it as the same as employing a business strategy consultant. They are there to help you develop more beneficial strategies for thinking and reacting to your daily life, and sleep is just one factor. It sounds trite, but developing different ways of thinking and reacting to problems is huge. Unfortunately, there aren't one-size solutions, so what worked for me likely isn't helpful advice. But for the average reader of this site, seeking out a psychologist vs a regular counselor is money well spent.

Thanks for chiming in. I find counselling useful, but not everybody does!

I enlisted the help of a psychologist advertising quick symptom-relief with his published set of CBT tools without first needing a protracted psychological deep dive. Avoiding imminent, life-altering consequences required fast results. I reckoned we could address less cut-and-dried matters down the line and gave it a shot. The tools worked, but I needed more connection. Our session began by quantifying the efficacy of parts of an exercise with 1-10 scales and a/b comparisons, and ended with him walking me through a tweaked version of an exercise and emailing me a copy in a word document. Exchanges not directly advancing that process frustrated him. A two-sentence response to “how are you doing?” felt inappropriate, like explaining the impact of unreliable transportation on your life to a busy auto mechanic expecting terse, actionable bullet points. He’d almost certainly have preferred a 1-10 answer. He was pretty upfront about it when we started, but I expected less of a departure.

That said, he’d have been perfect for my father— a lovely and very type-A retired engineer. At my mom’s behest, he gave therapy a shot with a trusted family counselor they’d previously used for family therapy. He truly gave it his type-A best, but couldn’t open up. The counselor essentially said that so many years of psychological self-policing rendered talk therapy too difficult to pursue barring a mental health crisis.

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