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Comment by manquer | Hacker News Reader

> At some point, an ex-boyfriend is not likely to want to keep modifying a video to piss off his ex

It is not only the ex who keeps uploading again and again. Once videos get into the wild, you have all sorts of people/bots who do this, some just for the kinks, some for money / promoting the next pill/crypto whatever spam, some "fans" genuinely wouldn't know that the video was made without consent and that she is really high, There is so much "situational" or "incest" porn out there many cannot differentiate acting high and being actually high.

Also lines get blurry, how much of any actual porn (amateur or professional) is with real informed consent, do actors really know what they are getting into? . How many young OF streamers are doing it for small money and it will haunt them later in life ?

A ton of legal porn is exploitative too, we don't have solutions for any of this.

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>> A ton of legal porn is exploitative too, we don't have solutions for any of this.

Money. That is why they get paid. We can debate how much and tell stories about porn stars who are stuck in bad contracts, but the systemic answer to exploitation is the exchange of money.

Money is an answer to exploitation about as much

A slaver feeding their slaves is an answer to slavery.

Just because you get something in exchange, doesn't mean that there's no power imbalance, the exploitation doesn't exist, and the people with less power don't actually have few alternatives to survive.

If you're arguing for: "they should be paid more!" Because currently the pay is unfair and doesn't take into account potential long term damage, that's fair... But it's not a realistic solution (how do you unionize gig workers? Because at the end of the day, people on OF have more in common with the gig economy than with porn actors of yore)

No. With money comes contracts and consent. The contract (offer and acceptance) creates evidence of intent. Then after things go horribly wrong and courts get involved, money is used to provide compenation for wrongs done. The system exists. It is an imperfect answer but it does function.

Imagine you are compelled by a few seasoned guys to enter a contract when you are at the youngest age that is allowed by law (which is how they like it). You are half intimidated, half curious and you don’t have a lawyer you can ask for legal advice on this matter.

The power asymmetry, physiological and emotional factors at play, the irreversibility of the action (the guys working you know that once they have a tape, you are quite easily manipulated), their gain and your potential damage exceed those in any legal industry.

Yeah, you are paid a hundred bucks and “money makes it legal”.

Hey, are you talking about the military?

Here's the thing though, we do set a line after which you're legally given as much rope as you want to hang yourself with. I don't see how you fix the adverse outcomes without causing even worse failure in other areas.

Let’s be stark: to equate military to this is to treat military service as exploitation for someone’s financial gain and pleasure. It could be a valid position, but not necessarily the one I would consider mainstream.

Addendum: ah, and vastly different implications. Service in most countries is not associated with a stigma, is much more transparent, etc.

It sounds like what you're saying would apply to like almost every job ever. What's the solution?

> real informed consent

How many people getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into? A credit card? The people buying GME stock... do they really understand what's going on?

I mean you have a good point. Which is why people should be afforded a basic income and guaranteed housing, so they can't be exploited like this.

Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places?

I don't really wish to argue your examples that all lead to financial ruin( arguably easier to reverse in life) is definitely worse than the social stigma and mental health damage the way revenge or commercial porn can have , there better examples you could have used[1]. However it doesn't matter if something else is just as worse or exists and also exploitative[2], that has no bearing on how porn should be better handled.

[1] Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument - informed medical consent , most patients are neither in a mental state to give informed consent nor they have subject matter expertise to do so. Decisions can be fatal or have irreversible impact on your life

[2] Non ETF investing definitely needs to be gated with some certification/ educational course on risks especially for derivatives trading, it should also cover crypto , we already have some gating for accredited investors, but this is not relevant for this discussion.

> Are you implying exploitative consent is okay in porn because it normalized in other places?

>...

> Here is a better example for your whataboutism argument ...

Not OP, but I think you might be over-analyzing their comment. I am interpreting their short comment as opening a thread of conversation on the notion of what "real informed consent" means, and adding other circumstances where an outsider would also reasonably expect informed consent, yet people find themselves in undesired circumstances. That's it, as that's all that's written.

Yeah, I read it as more pointing out that "real informed consent" sounds a bit like a No True Scotsman fallacy.

"I have consent right here, the actor signed a literal release form."

"But that's not real, informed consent."

Perfect understanding can not be achieved yes also defining what is ideal consent is hard and arbitrary, that shouldn't mean we abandon any hope of improving current state of consent which is not effective.

To improve informed consent say for trading[1], a basic training course required by SEC on risks and options would go long way for a lot of people to understand how derivatives work before allowing them to open account in Robinhood style apps, this could be even be extended for crypto and NFTs. It could be limits based rather than hard blocks. Schools could include such material to educate kids.

Speculating and losing money in today's gamified simple UX apps like Robinhood is attracting a ton of people who cannot afford to loose their money and don't really understand the basics of the market, it wasn't a problem when you had to go through a broker who would advise you a bit or use high end Bloomberg terminal . The next market correction/crash is going to be very painful for many people who cannot afford to loose that money.

[1] I don't know what would work for Porn, trading is lot easier to solve.

Perhaps I should have given OP the benefit of the doubt , maybe if he had elaborated more it would have helped.

Online forums even here has made me jaded with these subtle what about it arguments you see constantly.

Two things can be bad and you're allowed to try to fix one of them even while the other one is still bad

> A credit card?

Most people, I'd say.

> getting a mortgage really know what they're getting into

Also most people, I'd say. It may not be the best choice for them if they had a magic omniscient oracle, but most people can understand the concept that they need to pay $XYZW/month for the next 25 years if they don't want to lose most of the value of their house.

Now, if your example was of 18-year olds with zero life experience suckered in by shitty colleges that promise the world, and deliver nothing but misery...

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