Comment by danShumway | Hacker News Reader

Comment by danShumway | Hacker News Reader

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> whereby a select few can view private information

Oh, cool, then Taler also doesn't have a backdoor, since its auditability is also not a method by which a select few can view private information.

> Moreover, there are various methods, especially in Ethereum, where this private information can be hidden, like zk-SNARK-based mixing contracts that break the publicly visible link between deposits and withdrawals to it.

Cool, you can also try to mix your transactions on Taler, so another point towards Taler not having backdoors.

> Ethereum's lack of privacy is a result of the attempt to allow global auditibility of the validity of transactions.

So what you're saying is a deliberate design decision to allow auditing as part of the core design of a product isn't a backdoor? Cool, then Taler doesn't have a backdoor. Note that Taler's auditing design is more private than Ethereum's, it leaks less information to accomplish the same goal.

> breaks privacy intentionally, for the sake of preventing people from escaping taxation mandates

Also known as auditability. Ethereum's design breaks privacy intentionally, for the sake of preventing people from double-spending.

>>Oh, cool, then Taler also doesn't have a backdoor, since its auditability is also not a method by which a select few can view private information.

The group that can view the private information in Taler is limited to the state.

>>Cool, you can also try to mix your transactions on Taler, so another point towards Taler not having backdoors.

On the list of features on the Taler website, it says the following:

>>Customers can stay anonymous, but merchants can not hide their income through payments with GNU Taler. This helps to avoid tax evasion and money laundering.

I think you're being disingenuous in implying that a non-backdoored version of Taler would still fit the description the Taler website itself gives for the software.

>>So what you're saying is a deliberate design decision to allow auditing as part of the core design of a product isn't a backdoor?

* Auditing of the validity of the transactions that doesn't require exposing private information to third parties

* Auditing by everyone, not a select few with privileged backdoor access.

> I think you're being disingenuous in implying that a non-backdoored version of Taler would still fit the description the Taler website itself gives for the software.

A version of Taler that didn't allow auditability wouldn't fit the description on its website, correct. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's a "backdoor", and more importantly, it has nothing to do with whether or not it's a desirable part of the functionality, regardless of whether or not you want to call it a backdoor.

Again, we can say the same about Bitcoin. I think you're being disingenuous in implying that a non-backdoored version of Bitcoin wouldn't allow double-spending. Theoretically Monero might fit the bill, but given that neither Bitcoin nor Ethereum have adopted Monero's transaction model, it's pretty obvious that the maintainers/community don't view plugging that hole as a priority.

> Auditing of the validity of the transactions that doesn't require exposing private information to third parties

> Auditing by everyone, not a select few with privileged backdoor access.

This is an interesting criticism, because Bitcoin objectively exposes more information to 3rd parties than Taler does. What you're arguing to me is that Bitcoin is more private because it exposes my information to literally everyone, and not to a limited subset of people.

It's like saying that my banking balance isn't private because the bank can check it, but if the bank instead broadcasts all of that same information to all of my employers and anyone who asks, then it's suddenly OK. It's like saying that if my partner has access to my phone that's a backdoor, but if instead Google just lists all of my contacts publicly on a webpage, then it's not a backdoor anymore. It doesn't make any sense, things become more private the fewer people who have access to them.

>>A version of Taler that didn't allow auditability wouldn't fit the description on its website, correct.

So the reasonable characterization of Taler's design is that it is backdoored, or as per your euphemization, "allows auditability" by privileged state authorities. Taler cannot remove that feature and still possess its defining qualities.

>>That has nothing to do with whether or not it's a "backdoor",

It has to do with the point you made, which is that Taler could remove that feature. It cannot, and I explained why.

>>I think you're being disingenuous in implying that a non-backdoored version of Bitcoin wouldn't allow double-spending.

Bitcoin is not backdoored. You're completely misdefining the term 'backdoor' now. This is a very bad faith argument from you.

>>Theoretically Monero might fit the bill, but given that neither Bitcoin nor Ethereum have adopted Monero's transaction model, it's pretty obvious that the maintainers/community don't view plugging that hole as a priority.

1. Not making plugging that hold a priority is absolutely not the same as providing state authorities with a backdoor as part of the design goals.

2. As a matter of fact, Bitcoin's LN has all transaction onion routed now. Ethereum has no need to take Monero's road to achieve privacy, as its Turing Complete program execution environment enables private transaction programs like AZTEC Network to run on top of it.

>>What you're arguing to me is that Bitcoin is more private because it exposes my information to literally everyone, and not to a limited subset of people.

I didn't say Bitcoin was more private. I said Bitcoin, Ethereum and other permissionless blockchains weren't definitionally backdoored.

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