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Comment by random_upvoter | Hacker News Reader

> It is precisely because of the tactics they used in places like Chechnya that the people are fighting back.

Some people are fighting back, mostly young men of somewhat courageous disposition. Also 1,2 million Ukrainians have already fled the country which far exceeds the number of Ukrainian combatants. I'm sure some of them would see surrender as a better outcome than loosing their homes and home country. I also heard stories about men between 18 and 60 who weren't even allowed to leave the country, so that number would be even higher if this demographic was given a free choice.

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They are not allowed to leave because general mobilization has been called. Pretty common in all countries that have mobilization laws.

So if you are a young man in Ukraine and you have no stomach to get sacrificed in a geopolitical game between the West and Russia you should be given no way to opt out?

That’s how those laws work yeah. In practice you won’t see military action unless you have previous training because you are a liability in combat. But you’ll for sure be building tank traps, filling sandbags, digging trenches and moving supplies.

That's how it works in the United States and basically every Western country. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it the law.

I don’t think calling it a geopolitical game is an accurate enough description. Yes there is meta level of geopolitics, but in the core this is an uncalled invasion by Russia. This is a culture that is being wiped out, because you know it’s going to be replaced by parrots from the Kremlin.

> uncalled invasion by Russia

To be clear, in no way the bloodshed that Russia is causing in Ukraine can be justified. But to claim that this invasion has got nothing to do with the policy of the West to expand NATO in the direction of Russia is nonsense.

NATO was giving guarantees to not expand to Ukraine. Yet still they got invaded. Proving once again why a NATO is necessary as a defensive alliance.

Don’t think for a moment that if NATO was still in West Europe only that Russia wouldn’t steamroll the other eastern european countries when they have a chance. Russia already took other satellite states like Chechnya and Georgia earlier. Russia is an aggressor.

Is Ukraine a sovereign nation capable of entering into alliances as it wishes or is it not?

Clearly it is not capable as it is not in the NATO despite willing to do so.

Note: the following is about how these young men get fucked by a system, not a justification of them getting fucked.

Whether people like it or not, people talk about patriarchy also being bad for men, this is why. In the traditional value systems, as a man you have duties and roles you have to fill which aren't open to women which can be quite beneficial and if not might be valorised and mythologised - but there's a reason why it's set up like that. To create social and legal expectations that you "should" be strong and loyal and accept being fed into a warmachine. This becomes much less easy to sell in more equitable value systems because you have to either enforce it equitably (and then who's left in a war like this to escape and do the non combatant roles?).

So if people don't like men being specifically singled out here, welcome to the feminist movement. Whether you think everyone or noone should be caught in this is a different question

He was telling you how it is not how we wish things were.

You expect “the country” to do things for you ( while you pay taxes), now “the country” expects you to do things for it.

That’s how it has been working for many centuries and applies to any society, even the stable and peaceful ones.

Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go? :)

Why do you assume they expect “the country” to do anything for them? I certainly don't want “the country” to do anything for me and I don't want to do anything for “the country” that I wouldn't do for anyone.

Also, anyone who want men but not women to be forced to fight is not a feminist.

> Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go?

I would guess many are fighting or supporting the war effort and their country in other ways. Also leaving with your kids doesn't mean one is less feminist, just that you want less of your family to die. Compliance doesn't equal agreement.

I was being snarky, but I didn't equate "feminists" to females, let alone with children. It wasn't any statement with content, just a tease.

While compliance doesn't equal agreement, let's not fall in the trap that non-compliance will solve the problem. The enemy ( which is what it is atm ) isn't some old fat C-suites that rollover when "their twitter explodes" and they have to work on the weekend instead of go boating.

That statement considerable changes meaning when you know that the thing that failed was that they found a huge amount of gas in Crimea.

It's a Russians invasion, not from the west. A country should be free to decide what they want.

Ukraine doesn't send conscripts to front line. They will service far front line. Ukraine had genocide (Holodomor) and bloody war less than century age, so they caused long plato in reproduction rate. Also, Ukraine has low fertility rate, so we don't want to lose young man and woman, because it hits hard. Many parents has one or two childs, so death of single son on girl causes lot of pain.

If you have stomach for this game, then go to frontline and replace somebody young here, please, so (s)he will not die.

Nobody should be forced to participate in a war. These men (and trans women who the state considers to be men) are being victimized twice. First by the Russian government who brought war to their home, and then again by the Ukrainian government who is forcing them to participate in that war.

While forcing even more people to fight would obviously be even worse, the exclusion of one sex makes it feel worse because of its fundamental unfairness and the sexism it perpetuates. Perhaps it's illogical, but I actually feel better about being from a country with equal conscription where twice as many people are at risk of being forced to kill and die for the state, although I would of course prefer if the state relinquished its claim to its citizen's lives and gave everyone a choice.

Being forced to participate in defense is different than being forced to participate in offense.

Defending is like paying taxes. Everyone has to do their part, and the day of payment coming due for enjoying the citizenship is too late to decide "maybe I want to change citizenships".

It's frankly dishonest to try to reduce and equate everything to "forced to participate in war".

I fundamentally disagree. People don't choose where they are born and don't owe any aligiance to the state that happens to control that territory.

Just because the local mob accepted my protection money and left me alone doesn't mean I have a moral obligation to defend them against a competitor.

People don't even choose to be born at all. That isn't an argument.

There is no place one even could choose to live that doesn't have some sort of communal shared structure and resources, which everyone benefits from, and everyone must contribute to, and so "didn't choose" is yet again, not an argument.

So if you are a young man

Not just young men. If a man is between the ages of 18 and 60 currently then they would be defending their country. They are also accepting men from outside their country and have relaxed the visa requirements.

no way to opt out

Probably not legally. One would have had to find a way to flee the country while that was still possible. This is not unique to Ukraine. Many people fled the US that were opposed to participating in the Vietnam war.

As a side note, I think it is about to get interesting in the United States of America as the Selective Service is slowly moving in the direction of accepting women into the process. [1][2] I would expect this to become a popular headline once ratified.

[1] - https://www.sss.gov/register/women/background/

[2] - https://rollcall.com/2021/10/05/congress-moves-toward-requir...

There are limited choices due to the Russian invasion but they can always opt out

Easy to attach a fancy term for it. However, is it any better than the forced conscription on the other side. Both sides are forcing their young to fight a war instead of having the right to choose.

So what’s your suggestion to stop the war and find a peaceful solution? I’m genuinely curious because I cant think of one that will not require more bloodshed or complete surrender and trust in your invaders goodwill and decency.

Unfortunately, there isn't one. Fall back to the western parts of the country. Don't expend blood over cities that cannot be saved. End of the day, a country cannot be more than its people. Ukraine should save as many of the families (including men as it can). Eventually, the dictator and his banana republic will splinter again into even more smaller pieces than soviet union did. Current result is already written in stone when Ukraine forgo its nukes for independence and money. Sadly in current world a country's boundaries are not permanent unless backed by MAD (either on its own or through alliances). As much as we have progressed technologically, the human greed and emotions haven't changed one iota which is why we will always have wars.

First, announce that former US President Donald Trump and former First Lady Melania will be traveling to the region to deescalate. As Putin’s only real peer, Trump can sell a great peace.

Second, China is between two belligerent nuclear powers and yet doesn’t show the same outward anxieties as some NATO members. Instead, something about the island of Taiwan preoccupies China. Taiwan must be into something. Replace Russia on the UN Security Council with Taiwan.

Third, people murmur about the amount of money extracted and stashed in the Caribbean. Take any balance above, say, 1mm usd and replace it with a peace bond that can only be cashed, in person, under a DEFCON zero.

What the gobble fish bicycle?

If this is just humor, I apologize, because it's hilarious, but I don't dare upvote it because holy quackenbarkers.

> Also 1,2 million Ukrainians have already fled the country

> so that number would be even higher if this demographic was given a free choice.

Sounds like they did have a choice

What if Russian soldiers were given a free choice? How many would choose to invade Ukraine?

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