Comment by rixed | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rixed | Hacker News Reader

I can add a similar story: from time to time I'm volunteering on a russian school sail ship, that's been sailing around Europe for the last 20 years, from festival to festival, teaching people from every origins to sail and live together in a 3-mast replica. Many harbour-cities in Europe have send messages to that ship that it was no longer welcome, because of its flag, regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government, not having been to Russia for the last 10 years, having Ukrainian crewmembers, etc.

Funny enough, this very morning a former sailor on that ship wrote a letter, which ended with these words:

> It is with a heavy heart that I learnt today that Russian ships are not welcomed anymore to the Tall Ships Races and maritime festivals because of the war in Ukraine. Shtandart is a private ship, built and operated privately by sailing enthusiasts, with no connection whatsoever with the Russian government. I cannot imagine how that exclusion can have any impact on the Russian government decisions. I can see though very clearly how that exclusion can cripple the Shtandart project financially, making its life changing mission impossible.

> I see banning the Shtandart from our maritime festivals and the Tall Ships Races like banning Tarkovsky from our cinemas, Tchaikovsky from our music halls, Kandinsky from our art museums or Dostoevsky from our libraries.

Premonitions...

None of those dead geniuses have the sway to reject the current Russian government and demand changes. If enough Russians are impacted, maybe they will find the will to do so.

> regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government

Flying under a Russian flag, registering itself with the Russian government, and agreeing to operate under Russian jurisdiction sure sound like ties to the Russian government to me. Presumably if the ship decided to stop operating under those circumstances, there are other countries who would be willing to accept the ship to their jurisdiction.

+1

Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else) if they want to show they're on the side of humanity.

> Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else)

Ships don't fly flags to signal patriotism or some other virtue. They fly the civil ensigns of the country where they are registered as a matter of international law.

Good luck trying to register a Russian owned ship in Ukraine in the present circumstances.

There is no side in any conflict that is not human.

If you truly believe otherwise please document yourself further, I can assure you you will discover that, once again, all was not black and white (I recommend any book or video from few years ago about the situation in Ukraine).

To get back to the ship, I hope we will manage the situation through dialog, first with harbors, then with people who may be shocked to see this or that flag, patiently defusing locally small bits of the hatred that's been manufactured at such a large scale.

First, it is easy to say Russians lack the will to oppose their government. Had you the will to oppose the American government when it invaded Irak, despite you could do so without facing jail, unlike Russians?

Secondly, a flag means many different things for different people. I do not want to discuss this, I think this is too subtle and sensible a topic to be discussed here and now. Suffice to say it had been considered to change the flag. Meanwhile, they have been flying the Ukrainian flag alongside the Russian flag (you can imagine the risks involved. Now the ship has to be guarded from stupid nationalists from all sides).

Just imagine this had been done to any other nation: Americans, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese etc. Do you think any of these would just say "Wtf, let's overthrow the government to make the foreigners happy!"? If you think so, there are some examples to the contrary in not so distant history e.g. with Germany after WW1.

I think holding the citizens of a country responsible for the actions of the government of their country is not completely unreasonable.

Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia. Dostoevsky is dead.

While I get what you're saying in regards to the fact that no Russian citizen is being punished in this specific event, I can't help but feel like banning the works of someone who is around 140 years removed from what is Russia today is nothing more than a blatant attack on "Russian-ness", so to speak.

You absolutely do not get what I'm saying. The action of bannig dostoevsky is absurd because there is not even a tenuous thread of accoutability there. Russia was ruled by the Romanovs when he died.

I'm actually in full agreement with you. I must have read your comment "Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia" with a different connotation than you intended. Going back and reading it, and the parent comment, makes me realize you were getting at something else. In any event, I also believe is this fervent foolishness.

Even when the government throws the opposition in jail? When foreign media is banned, so most citizens don’t even know that there is something to protest? Tough break to be from that country: your government oppresses you and the rest of the world does too.

Russian history should teach us as well as anything that even totalitarian dictatorships have to operate with a modicum of consent from those they govern. Pitchforks and torches (especially when wielded by soldiers' mothers) are underrated as a tool for political changes.

Maybe in a democracy

Every country is at least a little bit democratic. Russian citizens living in Russia have a lot more power to affect the political situation in Russia than non-Russian citizens, or those not living in Russia.

You know what happens in a democracy where people do not have enough education and just don't trust their own government to work effectively? They elect the least capable people possible to positions of power.

Take Brazil for example. There will be federal elections there this year and who is the candidates that's set to win the elections? Lula, the same president that presided over Brazil when the largest corruption scheme in the history of the world [1] was at its peak. He spent years in prison and was freed recently, just in time to become president again, because of course, people believe he was innocent, or probably will at least "steal less" than the others.

I am not convinced we should blame all Brazilians for the actions of its corrupt government even if just about a majority of Brazilians vote for patently corrupt candidates. As always , these things are complicated.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash

However, documents leaked in June 2019 to Glenn Greenwald at The Intercept suggest that Judge Sérgio Moro may have been partial in his decisions,[20] passing on 'advice, investigative leads, and inside information to the prosecutors'[21] to 'prevent Lula's Workers' Party from winning' the 2018 elections.[21] Several top jurisprudence authorities and experts in the world have reacted to the leaks by describing former President Lula as a political prisoner and calling for his release.[22][23] Lula was ultimately released on 8 November 2019,[24] and Brazil's Supreme Court ruled justice Moro was biased against Lula in March 2021.[25]

Do you believe that means Lula had no responsibility and is innocent, or even that he's capable enough to run the country despite the fact this scandal happened right under his nose, even if he didn't explicitly participate?

I like to agree because it's a simple razor that I can live my life by. I like simple. But the minute I endorse it all the shit countries I had lived in pop into my mind. People that have had no say in the horrors their leaders inflicted on the world. Countries rarely make decisions that are great for people living outside them, hell even at best of times they don't make great decisions for people who hold a passport.

I think that the anger that we all feel is incredibly valuable but only if we aim it at the right direction. Russia is a Kleptocracy governed by oligarchs who we in the West are happy to accommodate. How come Abramovich had a week to get his affairs in order and now sails in his yacht "Eclipse" around Gibraltar[1] when he should be sitting in a cell next to Assange. The real criminals are our dear leaders who prop up dark money and their oligarchs. I don't buy for a minute that any of my hate should be spent on civilians who are just like our racist uncle cheering for Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, or any of the other chuckle-ducks that have been hijacking our attention. This is their playbook, don't play their game, play yours.

[1] https://twitter.com/alexzfinley/status/1502304897139716102

Yes, we should hold American citizens responsible for invading Iraq.

Can you tell us which country are you from so we can look in Wikipedia if your government has made something horrible in the last 10 years?

There's a difference between the tacit recognition that the people aren't wholly removed from the decisions of their government, even in oligarchy, and this sort of full-blown performative Russophobia. Harm against ordinary Russian citizens can be justified inasmuch as it pressurizes the regime to change course or to be itself changed -- banning Dostoevsky or a random private ship does neither. It's hostility for the sake of hostility and, if anything, will likely galvanize the sort of disdain for the West that makes folks tolerant of thugs like Putin.

Yes, I agree. Depending on scale of democracy. In countries like USA where they continue voting and even fund the war criminals they fully deserve same penalty than those politicians and political parties they support. Explicit support for anyone participating in murder should result in death penalty after all.

On other hand where they have less effects like in Russia, maybe less so.

not sure how to reconcile this... i dont think we should hold citizens accountable because the citizens dont control russia. Even in democratic countries the citizens only marginally control what the country does imo. There are people and organizations within russia that have far more power then the average russian citizen.

What country are you a citizen from?

Might be a silly question, but can't they sail under a different flag or no flag at all?

I don't think it's silly. I looked into this kind of thing once, and as I recall, it's super illegal.

Surely a ship can change which country it is registered to.

No flag is illegal.

You can indeed switch flag, but it's not easy, and they do not like that solution for several reasons:

- for them the flag means "Russia" not "Putin" (they added the Ukrainian flag by the way, which might also be borderline illegal)

- I suspect they do not want to give way to what they perceive as a temporary hysteria

- the ship is a replica of the first ship of the Baltic sea, it carries various flags of historical importance. You can't just relabel it as a panamean ship and call it a day (although maybe that's what will be done eventually, if only temporarily).

I personally believe that they are right to stand against russophobia, as long as possible. Please don't misinterpret this as suport for the current war, or support for some russian imperialism. Come to visit the ship one day if you have the chance, and see for yourself.

No one thinks that the Russian people are collectively responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. If there were a way to target Putin, and Putin alone, then we'd do that. But it's impossible. So we use the blunt (and unfair) instrument of sanctions to try to make this painful for all Russians, in the hopes that doing so puts pressure on Putin to stop his invasion. It's not at all fair to ordinary Russians, but perhaps it's justified given the gravity of what's happening in Ukraine.

I would agree with you, if I had any faith left that the west actually cared about the fate of Ukrainian people.

I see nothing wrong with restricting the rights of Russian citizens in foreign countries.

Their government is invading a neighbor and causing the death of thousands of people. Due to the presence of nuclear weapons, NATO forces can not directly engage with Russia militarily so the only solution is for Russians to deal with the problem themselves

Theres something deeply funny about hiding behind a throwaway account while saying that anyone Russian by means of passport ought to be repressed. Cowardly display

How so? Do you think anonymity shouldn't be allowed online?

Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information?

What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine? Why should Ukrainians suffer and die while Russian citizens are free to live a life of peace?

> How so?

You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post. Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input.

You're just feigning a petty tyrant.

> Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information?

My handle isn't some random assortment of characters and if you Google my name, you will find it all.

> What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine?

I'm just some idiot with a keyboard, who cares what my opinion is?

>You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post

It sounds like you're opposed to the idea of interacting on the internet without some kind of verified identification. Discussions have different levels of "safe" viewpoints. Instead of having a different account for each tier of discussion, I use a singular account for all of them. That being said, I don't think this is an extreme point of view as the west is already sanctioning wide swaths of the Russian economy.

>Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input.

Yes. Citizens from enemy countries should not be treated the same as those from friendly or neutral countries.

For Russians, it's their country and their people that are invading a neighbor and killing others. It's their president that is threatening to start a nuclear war. Russian citizens in foreign countries are free to claim asylum in those countries and work towards a different citizenship

> Discussions have different levels of "safe" viewpoints

You don't have viewpoints, you have cosplays. If you had viewpoints, you'd stick by them. Instead you get to have your cake and eat it: post whatever catches your fancy that particular week and then pretend to be on the posters version of the underground railroad.

Again, so you think that individuals should only be able to intero over the internet with verified identification?

Define "their government"? Do they own the oligarchs and bureaucrats that rule Russia?

If the country I happen to be citizen of launch a war, like it did recently, say in Lybia, am I responsible of this because I failed to predict that the government for which I did not vote would start that war?

You seam to strongly believe that reality is divided into countries. I think this largely fictional view obscures everything in our present situation.

>If the country I happen to be citizen of launch a war, like it did recently, say in Lybia, am I responsible of this

More responsible than a citizen of another country.

How does Russia's invasion of Ukraine end?

The only two I see are:

Ukrainian troops kill enough Russians and physically push them back into Russia or Putin orders a withdrawal due to domestic pressure or fear of that domestic pressure.

The Ukrainians are doing the first part but the Russian people are the only ones that can do the second part (with the helping of sanctions).

This will end like it started: with politics.

At some point all involved parties will find a new equilibrium they are OK with. Opinion of russians in the street count very little. Opinion of russians in the army probably more I believe. But our opinion does count a little too. I would like if more westerners would show support for negotiations (esp. regarding NATO) instead of endless war.

What negotiations regarding NATO?

Should Ukrainians always be forced to be a vassal state to an authoritarian ruler?

Why not Moldova? Or Poland?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com