Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees | Hacker News Reader

Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

kode24.no

94 pointsretrojorgen176 comments

There's already a number of comments trying to spin this in one racially loaded way or another discrimination loaded way or such. Please stop. I'll try to explain why your take is misguided with a parable which you can no doubt poke countless holes into.

Say you've lived in one place your whole life. You have a neighbour, and they've lived their whole life there as well. One day your neighbour comes to you and asks for a hundred bucks because they've fallen on hard times. Now compare this to a stranger on the street asking you for a hundred because they say they've fallen on hard times.

People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour. Many have friends, family and/or relatives there. Many have travelled there. This is not about race, or religion, or any kind of hate. We're helping our neighbour.

This is the wrong way to look at it. If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides. People are reacting to the magnitude of the perceived crisis. Peoples' compassion pretty much knows no borders.

If there is any finger-pointing to be done then it's at the mainstream media not at how individuals or groups are trying to help human beings in need.

This is based on the assumption that it all has to do with media exposure.

>If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides

Your confidence in this statement is beyond me. We've been there, Germany 2015, Syria crisis.

There was no lack of media representation of the conflict, the victms, etc. Of course the whole "russia vs the world" thing makes the Ukraine-invasion a different ballgame, but no way in hell would you see job boards for Syrians all across Europe if only the media paid enough attention. The media sold and told the story over and over, to anyone that was willing to listen. People just aren't as open to completely foreign cultures and to Islam as they are to Eastern Europe - and frankly, I can't take a claim that diverges from this very basic groundline too serious. Talk to actual people in Europe and they will confirm what I'm saying here.

Everyone knows someone from Eastern Europe, we know their culture, they are - like the gp said - our neighbours. Syrians are not. I've met wonderful people amongst the syrian refugees, don't get me wrong. But to claim that there is no difference in sympathy whatsoever is simply ignorant to reality, and I think your audience here deserves better than that.

That's completely wrong. People's compassion at least in Europe is very localized and tribal.

The neighbor analogy summs it up perfectly. Don't dismiss it. Learn to understand it.

Not sure about Norway specifically, but job boards for non-western refugees existed before this war started:

https://www.refugeeforce.nl/apply

https://www.hackyourfuture.net/

Sorry. Media coverage would have no perceivable difference in the nature of response to Syrians vs Ukrainians. Rightly or Wrongly it is about what people are comfortable with. Europeans are more comfortable with other Europeans settling near them. Unfortunately there is a religious aspect too in this which I don't need to spell out. Some of that is a fear of what you don't know, but (again) unfortunately it is also sometimes the justified fear of more radical elements of the religion.

With Syria, they share much less commonalities in terms of culture than Ukrainians.

No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses.

I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know what is morally the right thing to do. But it is in our core psychology to look for similarities/differences and identify as close/distance to other people.

The Ukrainian government has also made an amazing job at galvanizing EU social media around this. The message is clear, it is us, your european brothers and sisters who are suffering right now, please help.

In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful.

> In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful.

Ukrainian government is killing it on the "media war" and certainly a case study for the future. It certainly helps that the President is a comedian by trade and backed by producers and screenwriters - they know exactly what people want to ear/see/read. Of course this has also a (huge) negative side but this is another story. Some stuff that makes sense in a movie, doesn't make sense on real life. Scenarios and deaths are real.

In the speeches and statements I have seen, there are a few differences. When addressing the European leaders, the Ukrainian leader speaks English without an interpreter. In addition there aren't any non-christian religious symbols in the image or speech, and when it comes to cultural symbols it is almost exclusively in terms of European union.

I have read/listen to a bit of research when it comes to diplomacy and tensions between nations, and a common theme is that its the small things that tend to have a large impact on kinship, trust and cooperation.

> "People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour"

Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?

I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans. I guess it's the same for Norweigians.

If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one.

Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants.

This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us.

There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.

> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans."

> "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one."

The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism.

We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences.

I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic.

> "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now."

And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?

>Why do we treat those groups differently then?

Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism.

It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade.

[1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225

There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did.

Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity?

Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe?

>usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism.

You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.

Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.

What are western values?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17284511

You're making a lot of broad, unfounded claims. According to [1], Ukraine has a "A long path towards integration" (into the European Union):

> "Of course, it is not only Ukraine’s population but its level of economic development that makes membership so costly for the EU. Ukraine is much poorer than Bulgaria, the poorest existing EU member state. Using 2013 World Bank pre-crisis (mid-year) figures, Ukraine’s GDP per capita ($3,900) was slightly over half (53%) that of Bulgaria ($7,340). Ukraine’s GDP per capita is also just over one-tenth (11%) that of the EU average ($34,240). For the sake of comparison, the GDP per capita of Croatia, the newest EU member, is almost identical to that of Poland ($13,520) and higher than that of the largest candidate country Turkey ($10,945)."

"Ukraine’s membership prospects are also linked to significant legal and political challenges. In discussions over Ukraine’s Association Agreement, EU negotiators repeatedly expressed concern over Ukraine’s high level of corruption, and insisted upon reforms within the judicial and electoral systems, as well as the release of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko from prison for medical treatment."

[1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...

I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things.

> "I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things."

I think this is where this conversation is going to have to end, because I don't think this is a reasonable, or a rational argument to make.

We've started this thread by trying to better understand why many other countries who are in a way worse situation do not get the same help offered now to Ukraine - and you're response is now basically down to "because the Ukrainian people are special and I know it".

>many other countries who are in a way worse situation do not get the same help

Then why aren't YOU helping those in worse situation from many other countries that are not Ukraine?

Help is not a random charity, countries are funded by their taxpayers so the taxpayers in a democratic country should have a saying on where their tax money should go to for help or else their leaders will be voted out come next elections, and if many EU countries are biased for whatever reason to help Ukraine or Ukrainians, then it's their choice to do so regardless of how you feel about it. Life is merciless and inherently unfair to almost everyone and whining about the fairness of it on the internet won't help anyone.

If this unfairness bothers you then vote against this or put your money where your mouth is and donate it or go to the middle east or Africa and help the poor people there.

They are not getting the same level of support? Last time I checked there was free housing, food etc and guidance for all of them, not to mention the thousands of NGOs that cover all roles.

I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians.

I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.

Humans are tribal in hundreds of different dimensions.

For example, If two people riding Harley motorcycles and two other people driving converted camper vans all arrive at a rest stop at the same time, it is likely that they will be friendly with each other based on the type of vehicle they arrived in.

But religion,politics,race,gender,age,nationality all can be big ones as well. Syria hits a lot of those.

Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Somebody who lives in your general area, or somebody from the other side of the world?

> Where do you draw the line

There is no universal logical line. It is also very patronising to try and tell a cultral group of people who they should or shouldn't consider their neighbour. This isn't to say comparisons shouldn't be drawn between the different scenarios just that doing so while proposing that the solution is racism (or similar) will lead to nothing consutructive and only bitterness and resentment at the accusations.

I call this term "minor privilege". West is affluent, and they are likely to donate if some is victim from their group. Syria is not in west, so they aren't born with that privilege and many west aren't emphatic to them due to various reasons like media coverage, leaders etc.

Syria’s not in Western, Eastern or any Europe. Might as well be Papua New Guinea, there’s zero connection there.

The horror stories like “Syrian refugee kills pregnant woman with machete” or “10 men gang rape woman outside nightclub” (8/10 being Syrian refugees) certainly aren’t helping either.

Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass.

> "Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass."

Why is being on the same continent a "very basic minimum requirement"?

Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany.

The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria, critics should be thankful that the EU is doing so much given the cost in social harmony and a rise in extreme right-wing sentiments.

> "Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany."

Sweden and Germany aren't next to, or "very near" to, Ukraine. Next to Ukraine are Russia, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Poland and Turkey.

If you're fine with people from Ukraine coming to Sweden and Germany on the basis of Ukraine's geographical proximity to those countries, I'm not sure why you'd be against people from Syria coming to Sweden and Germany.

A lot of Syrians sought asylum in Greece and Italy - they're not that far from Syria after-all?

> "The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria"

What does the EU "owe" Ukraine? Ukraine isn't a member state either, just like Syria. Does the EU also owe Georgia or Moldova anything?

I think you need to take a break and contemplate your biases and presuppositions towards people.

Western Europe are helping Poland and Romania which are direct neighbors and do have to accept refugees.

Actually the real mystery is why the EU would take anyone at all from Syria, which is pure courtesy and zero obligation. And the answer is that the EU is a wannabe moral superpower that’s great at taking in refugees (or people claiming to be refugees) and bad at everything that comes after. It’s already over its capacity to absorb outsiders. In the end the EU heads of state act surprised that anti-foreigner sentiments and the popularity of right-wing parties are rising, rinse and repeat while the wheels haven’t fallen off yet.

The UK seem to know their limits since their new found independence and just as expected they’re getting skewered for not throwing the gates wide open.

But Syria and Ukraine are on the same continent: Eurasia.

Yep. Just like how you'd kick out poor souls from Australia and New Zealand if zombies invade those countries and they come crying for help.

Also, Ukrainian software development industry is 200k developers strong. I don't know how big is this industry in Syria, but I suspect it is not even close, unfortunately.

The contrast could not be more stark.

Ukraine has sent their women and children to safety, the men, their leaders, and even many women are staying to fight against overwhelming odds. Literally nobody ever wants a flood of young men into their country.

The Russian invasion of Crimea was already basically ignored 8 years ago. I am 100% certain that if the war had gone something closer to how Putin had hoped, if Zelenskyy has fled to the west, if the military had backed down and the people given up, the response would be similar this time as well.

> We're helping our neighbour.

Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves.

We all know how difficult is to find good devs (edited: with subpar compensation) nowadays. The same applies on different fields also. As an anecdote, Portuguese government is _actively_ asking Ukrainian refugees to come to Portugal and sending them directly to areas known for chronic worker shortage. Ukrainians, typically, are not social security abusers and as such well seen by natives here. However, Portugal is not being successful and the low wages are being appointed (by our journalists) as the main reason why. This also means that other countries are competing for them.

>We all know how difficult is to find good devs nowadays.

Difficult to find good devs willing to work for peanuts maybe. Companies with a great culture and paying top dollar/euro have no trouble getting an influx of quality people, even willing to grind through several stages of interview practices to get in.

By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find.

>Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves.

More like companies are helping themselves here.

I'm supporting all Ukrainian refugees, not just the devs, but it's funny to see Norwegian companies cooperate to attract foreign talent and spin this into some benevolent charity work when they're just looking after their interests, to suppress local market wages.

>By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find.

Can we extend this to more sympathetic/relatable goods? ie.

"By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality GPUs. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good GPUs are tough to find."

"By the same logic, I also have trouble finding PS5s. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that PS5s are tough to find."

I disagree that anything below the "top dollar" is peanuts.

I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more.

>I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more.

Maybe in the US and Berlin/London/Amsterdam that holds true where VC money is constantly raining from the sky keeping the demand higher than the labor supply, but in most of west EU, outside of big tech, the pay of most IT & dev jobs are in line with all other office work grunts.

I wouldn't consider the 50K for mid levels and 80K for seniors, a dev salary to write home about in a high CoL EU country.

Making the labor pool bigger will not improve the wages.

My point is it's not peanuts either.

I know this can sound very first world problem in the current context, but peanuts is always relative to how much things cost in your environment and how much the purchasing power of everyone else is. If every office worker earns as much as every dev then devs do earn peanuts.

Devs in the US and other regions have the unique advantage of earning far more then the median in that area, therefore not peanuts.

Like how if you're earning on 80k in SF you're basically in poverty despite being in the 5% top earners globally.

Maybe in this particular case of the job board, since SW developers have an easier time finding jobs and can in principle work in English.

But for everyone else I bet that the EU will fail to integrate them into the labour market, while still having to offer healthcare, accommodation and other kinds of support, financial or otherwise.

There is no way that this is a win for the EU, otherwise they would have done something similar years ago.

It seems unconditional compassion is not natural to human societies of 21st century. Not in Europe, not in North America, not in Russia, not in South-East Asia.

I guess we should appreciate any compassion that our societies are moved to. And work on expanding that.

Riffing on a biblical quote, who is my neighbour? To a medieval peasant, someone from their villate. To a 19th century citizen, people of their country (most of them). To us, apparently people from some other countries, but not all. It's progress, let's keep up the good work.

>unconditional compassion

The argument from the other side is that the compassion isn't unconditional, because if they were Syrian or whatever they wouldn't have garnered the same compassion.

I think humans are fundamentally biased a little bit.

And it's probably a good idea if we collectively work towards eventually eliminating those biases.

People are addicted to drama and toxicity. Ignore them

Respectfully; this forum encourages discussion. It is not good enough to say Ukrainians are neighbours and would integrate better than refugees from other countries. At the expense of devolving into whataboutism, Eastern and Western Europe do have their genuine cultural differences. Will the western world still be as accommodating of Eastern European refugees in ten or twenty years?

Let us not speak in parables and downvote legitimate conversation.

Hi! We just launched a job board for Ukrainian tech workers that might be looking for jobs in Norway. The Norwegian government recently passed laws giving special rights to Ukrainian refugees.

kode24.no is Norways only news site for developers, and we already run a job board. We surveyed everyone on the board if they will accept applications from Ukrainian workers. So far there are 9 jobs available, hopefully more will come!

Oh and so far the job listings are done via google translate. Hopefully we will get translated versions soon, but I think translate works for now.

Would it be legal to not accept job applications from Ukrainian refugees? That is, if they have the right to work in Norway, how's the discrimination acceptable?

You might have linguistic requirements, which while discriminatory are also completely understandable.

Sure, you can have linguistic requirements ("You must speak Norwegian like a native") or affordances ("We're setting up a team of Ukrainian speakers"), but perhaps it would be fairer to market these jobs as "suitable for Ukrainian speakers" rather than "you must / must not be a Ukrainian refugee".

I think it is okay to treat refugees with an acute need different from folks who have already settled down and emigrated under different circumstances.

Yes, this is a case of positive discrimination that I can fully support. I made my original comment because the situation was described in the opposite: "[whether] they will accept applications from Ukrainian workers". Also, I thought it makes sense to ask these questions and potentially learn from how they did it in Norway and for instance, whether the workplace discrimination laws there are different from what I'm familiar with.

Salary for developers, even foreign ones in Norway is also pretty good! And at the moment there is a huge demand for software developers here.

This is a great idea and a good way to help people hit the ground running. One small nit pick, when I have adblock on, the page shows "0 available tech jobs", and your target audience are people who are more likely than average to use adblock.

Fair point! Trying to fix :) In case anyone wants to turn of ad block for the page. we do not run any banner ads on this page or the job board though. so for anyone willing to turn it of, you shouldn't se any wild banner ads.

I find kode24 practically unreadable without uBlock origin. Loading the frontpage, there are 45 items being hidden, and this is just by the cosmetic filters. In addition there are the third party analytics/ad scripts.

Btw, as far as I can tell, you're neither GDPR compliant, nor compliant with ekomloven[0], as you're not mentioning "Cookies" or "Informasjonskapsler" anywhere readily available.

All that being said - great initiative :)

[0]: https://www.nkom.no/internett/informasjonskapsler-cookies#hv...

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent, but the modern americanisms and other figuratives of english perpetually amuse me. First because people get so used to internet-powered mannerisms that even professional writers feel compelled to use contorted turns of phrase even when it would be easier to just employ an old (tired?) verb, adverb or something. The poor verbs suffer from ageism too and are going jobless! Honestly I feel a cheapening of english language but possibly just me.

In this case I should think "war refugee" with "hit the ground running" is a bit of unfortunate phrasing, nothing personal :)

That's a fair point, I think as a non-native speaker I don't always notice these separate-yet-linked connotations, and pointing them out definitely helps in that regard. What would be a better way to get the same idea across?

> What would be a better way to get the same idea across?

What you said.

They are war refugees in a political context. As hackers, however, they may seek to hit the ground running. This isn’t an Americanism. It isn’t denying reality. It’s acknowledging the slice of reality relevant to this discussion, which exists in the optimistic change-the-world pathos of hacker culture.

As the other user replied, only a few people who will read between languages/uses will pick up the nuance or irony, which however was not at all meant by you, that is, you didn't play with multiple meanings but just the "hackerism" at face value, no biggie. I'm possibly just lonely in being tired of hackerspeak or somesuch, and it's on me, with being jaded about english with its context in general as I go to other languages (english not my mother tongue either.)

There are many similar resources in Germany.

In my opinion, a lot of people are patting themselves on the back for doing the same thing as before at no additional cost to them. Hiring Ukrainian refugees in Germany is no harder than hiring any other immigrant. In fact it's slightly easier.

But recruiters and job boards still take their commission, whether or not they drape their website in blue and yellow.

Is there a similar board open to Russian refugees? Asking seriously, for myself and some friends. I wouldn't mind if priority is given to war refugees from Ukraine, of course.

Edit: refugee (n.) - a person who has been forced to leave their country to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

The word refugee has legal meaning. You cannot be called refugee unless your country is deemed unsafe and you risk your life being in that country. Thus Russians are not refugees but economic migrants.

However, you can get a political asylum if you have a history of opposing Putin and you are not safe in Russia because of that anymore.

No one who called for the government to end the war on social media or IRL is safe. It is black letter of law that it is punishable by imprisonment.

Do you have any examples of someone being imprisoned for this? Or you're just making assumptions? So far all I see is that everyone detained for participation in anti-war protests in Russia were released after questioning and being issued warning.

The existence of the law is not an assumption.

I'm following OVD-info reports: https://reports.ovdinfo.org/no-to-war-en#1 Do you consider it a reputable source? Nothing like you're describing has happened so far.

If you knew you would be reentering your home country as a criminal under a new free speech suppressing law, would you wing it and gamble 15 years of your life or would you hope to get asylum?

Based on what you wrote so far, I am grateful you do not work in asylum application processing.

Well, since it's not like the US where all this information is easily accessible and mostly reliable public record, most of what we have is interviews with people who have been released (and therefore must not have been sentenced to prison), but that still reveals that beatings, threats of rape and murder, and fines even for things which are on paper not illegal (like single-person protests, which are being processed as illegal organized protests because of similar subject matter to each other), are routine.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/03/russia-protesters-arres...

Avoiding being jailed for up to 15 years is economic migration?

Jailed for 15 years, really? It is more like being fined $200: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/marina-ovsyann...

$200 for the social media post, she is yet to stand trial for the tv act.

Listen to this and then rethink whether the russian activists feel safe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN1EkA14y6Q

Millions of Ukrainians weren't feeling safe since at least 2014. But it doesn't give grounds for asking for asylum. So to be "afraid to participate in protests because of fear of persecution" is not enough to claim refugee status.

There were hundreds of thousands of refugees from Ukraine in preceding years. Where are you getting your data?

I'm getting my data from Eurostat. There were fewer asylum applications from Ukraine than from Russia. Rejection rates for both countries were very high. And definitely not even close to the number you're suggesting. Especially if we're counting those who've got refugee status and not just applications.

There are, if you count Ukrainian refugees granted temporary asylum in Russia (somewhat ironically).

To elsewhere in the world, not all are legal refugees. De-facto refugees from Ukraine and Russia could leave in preceding years and did so legally. Many would be disinclined to go back since the likelihood of death or imprisonment has risen dramatically. They would be renewing their passports via embassies while working towards obtaining long-term resident status in meantime. The easiest way of obtaining that status may or may not be by asking for asylum, but regardless if you insist that guaranteed by law political persecution is not grounds for becoming a refugee I am not taking that seriously until you provide proof that reality contradicts the dictionary definition of the word.

They would be technically Asylum Seekers but you're wrong that Russia is safe. Plenty of LGBT people or anti-war activists will be granted refuge for instance by European governments.

Any examples when this actually happened?

Are you questioning whether European countries grant asylum/refuge on the basis of sexuality/gender identity, if those are persecuted in applicant's home country? That is indeed a thing, a quick search away to confirm…

Not just any home country. I'm questioning that this ever happened to some person from Russia (except maybe Chechnya). Even so situation with human rights is bad, it is far from Taliban bad.

Have you searched? I just googled up some stories of LGBT refugees from Russia who gained asylum in Germany.

Unless you are a refugee, you can check this:

https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/russian...

I work as a dev consultant in Oslo and I've crossed a handful of russian devs over the last few years. So it is possible for sure - in normal times atleast.

We are a team of web developers from Ukraine. We offer comprehensive and non-standard solutions, new ones and improve those that are needed.

Our qualifications: webGL, three.js, wordPress, CMS, php, webshops, mysql, ajax, html5, css3, javascript, web scraping.

We have more than five years of experience working together in web technologies.

https://happyusers.info/

A lot of comments here about racism against Muslim refugees and the lack of racism against Ukrainian refugees.

We are only three weeks into this war and refugee crisis. The far-right here in Western Europe have not yet had time to come up with reasons to hate Ukrainian refugees. The far-right is actually busy defending Putin's invasion and spreading pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian propaganda. It is only a question of time before this anti-Ukrainian propaganda targets Ukrainian refugees.

Another thing is that there were plenty of similar job boards for Syrian refugees in Denmark and Germany. Syrian refugees with dev skills were welcomed with open arms by our IT industry.

Can you justify your last statement as it looks spurious to me?

That's not entirely true. Polish Far Right has been fired up against the Ukrainians for some time (I mean, it's always just a matter of time and foreignness), just aren't getting any traction.

The key sticking point, and at peacetime possibly quite serious, is the Volhynia massacre [1]. I won't go into details, and context is very important as it wasn't unprovoked, but it was a terrible massacre of Poles by Ukrainians in 1940s, and its key perpetrators are revered as national heroes in Ukraine.

And yet, any attempts to bring this up in recent debate are immediately shot down by the wider public. It's just not catching on. It's not even a new subject, I think most people in Poland who watch the news know at least the headline facts about it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...

> context is very important as it wasn't unprovoked

No matter how provoked ethnic cleansing is never a good response.

Indeed. My point, the Polish side had applied genocide in the past, and bloody discriminatory policies not much earlier.

Plus, it was in Nazi-occupied, well, present-day Western Ukraine, and the Nazis were supportive of this. It's non-obvious how to judge this kind of events.

Your link says it was German-occupied not Nazi-occupied.

What are you trying to say?

I am curious why poster replaced Germany with Nazi.

At the time of the event, the area was occupied by Nazi Germany [0]. Whether you call it Nazi-occupied, German-occupied, or Nazi-German-occupied doesn't really make any kind of a difference here in my opinion.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%...

At the time of the event, area was occupied by Germany, official name was Deutsches Reich/Drittes Reich. See any document from WWII. "Nazi Germany" name was invented in '80. Combatants of WWII never heard anyone calling Germans as Nazis. Countries were not invaded by people from Nazi country speaking Nazi language.

I would like to see safe haven for Russians who oppose Putin. Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians. There was a news segment about a Russian expat who's been campaigning abroad against the regime for over 10 years and now she gets insulted by random people. This was somewhere in Spain but could as well be any other country.

They are desperately fleeing the regime to avoid being arrested. Others lost their jobs overnight. Their banks accounts frozen in a crashing currency. Can't sell their homes. Can't take their elderly parents with them (healthcare). Their credit cards don't work abroad (many stuck mid-way without a way to pay for a hotel or the flight to the actual destination like family somewhere).

It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate. The same people who would've hoped for peace just a few months ago. The same people who ranted for years against the wars in Irak and Afghanistan. There is no nuance. Just blind hate. And media fueling the fire.

EDIT: I AM NOT RUSSIAN so stop second guessing me. I just happen to know Russians in this situation. I think OP's site helping Ukranians is a fantastic idea. I just wanted to raise awareness on other people. That's it.

How do you know which ones of those Russians oppose Putin? Just by asking and trusting that they are being honest? Those opposing Putin are a small minority, most of them are supporting the war even those in academia. Check these ratings: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

Also, they are not risking much by being in opposition. That girl who protested couple of days ago during live broadcast on Russian TV got fined $200. They are risking to lose their lifestyle at most. While Ukrainians are risking to lose their lives.

I think in Russians living abroad majority might oppose Putin or at least want nothing to do with him.

I imagine hating Putin and the country he created might be one of the more common reasons of living abroad.

From my experience it is much bigger share of Russians living abroad who oppose Putin, and I've met many at demonstrations, but it is not a majority. I'd say 50/50. Still much better share compared to those living in Russia (including my relatives).

More or less. Some lived outside Russia and supported Putin. (I remember the disheveled guy at the airport trying to get a ticket out of Europe to Russia because he feared war. I don't know his political views but he made a good impression of being pro-Putin to Aeroflot staff, who could not help him anyway.)

However, many Russians who could live outside did so for political reasons. Just like I would rather not live in China due to disagreements about what CCP does, I would rather not live in Russia.

Before now, every time I went to Russia there was a tinge of fear of political prosecution due to my views, but now the tables have turned significantly. My extreme hate for the war together with the likelihood of being imprisoned for my views means there is no going back.

I have Russian work colleagues in a western European country. While they don't support Putin (at least not overtly) and don't like the level of power he has acquired, they seem to have an ingrained distrust of the "west", even though the "west" gave them permanent residence, social security, a means of living. They somehow still believe Putin's propaganda, claiming that they're not sure if bioweapons or labs really were found in Ukraine, or generally not trusting western news sources, while somehow still believing Russian ones.

So in my experience, a majority of Russians, even those living abroad, really are Putin's puppets.

I guess it's hard to shake off yhe brainwashing. Especially since fo younger people it was throughout their whole lives.

>Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians.

there are a lot of reasons for that. There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians. Even for me, a Russian well familiar with history and overall situation there, it is still hard to believe that Russians so easily went into that war. That makes anybody naturally question their existing perception of what Russians really is, and that is where the "xeno" feeling comes from.

Just look how pretty much whole Russia celebrates the "Z" symbol of the invasion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/letter-z-rus...

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500506408101593094

There is no meaningful difference between Germans celebrating swastika and their leader in 1939 and Russians celebrating "Z" and their leader in 2022. Europe's reaction isn't surprising here.

> There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians.

This reasoning/process is dehumanisation, and is the secret sauce in getting people to commit atrocities against other people. No matter how well-intentioned you yourself might be, please do not perpetuate dehumanising language.

Russians have been cut off from an alternative view of the situation: ALL opposition media have been blocked on the Internet and their broadcasting licenses have been revoked. Only propaganda media with the position that

1. There is no war, there is a special operation. 2. The special operation is carried out to help eliminate the Nazis in Donbass, who tortured eastern Ukrainians for 8 years

It's hard to step into the shoes of the average Russian when you have access to information. Truth be told, access to alternative media began to end more than 10 years ago, and has only accelerated over time.

The majority in any country always consumes the mainstream media available in that country. In Russia, there is only one point of view to choose from.

Only 10-30% of the population knows how to bypass blockages and know where to look for information.

> There is no nuance. Just blind hate.

That's where your comment falls in exactly the same trap it decries. No, there is not just blind hate. Yes, some people act badly and shouldn't, but it does not generalize that way.

That's an interesting whataboutist take.

I would mostly agree, but:

- fleeing your home country because its inhabitants (including yourself) have let it go to shits and you have a choice between keeping on tolerating what has been always there or just NOW deciding to flee

vs.

- fleeing your home country which for the last few years has started going to the right direction, has hope of becoming part of a much more welcoming and tolerant world .. because some thugs are literally killing your family, bombing your house and you either flee or risk dying.

There is no question which of those two uses up all of my empathy. Once the war has stopped, once all who have lost their actual home have it back, then we may have empathy for the people who let this happen.

Russians in Russia don't have a choice, please stop implying that Russian elections are either fair or of any consequence. People on the internet love to throw around the idea that citizens of oppressive regimes have a say in the direction or actions of that regime.

Neither Russian nor Chinese nor North Korean nor Iranian citizens have any say in what their respective governments do.

They don't, but Putin and his wars tend to be very popular in Russia.

Do you have any relatives in Russia? I have a lot and my experience talking to them says you're wrong. Your attempt to present Russia as some sort of NK-like dystopia is completely misguided.

Bullshit. The country is not 140M slaves without any agency.

The system is effective, but people are complicit. Why they still are, I don't know. I grew up on soviet union and we escaped the first chance we got. But them behind the border decided to accept whatever they did. A little explanation from our neighbors who also have to put up with the russian threat all the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw

> Russians in Russia don't have a choice

Each country has the leadership it tolerates (or deserves, I guess). It is of course very hard to depose an entrenched rul(er|ing class), but not impossible. I'm not even demanding you do so, it makes sense to my mind that you would choose flight over fight. But that does not put you in the same position as fleeing Ukrainians.

I don't think this is true. I have received a lot of support among friends, work and my broader social network helping to get out an anti-war Russian from the country. This is spread between Denmark and Germany.

I know this is happening in Spain, France, and UK. And I've heard it's happening in other places. YMMV

You might be thinking that it's a Putin's war, but I can assure you, Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war. Even people who live abroad.

> It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate

Because while some russians are experiencing "hate and xenophobia", civilian people is Ukraine are being brutally killed in thousands using unguided bombs, artillery strikes or MLRSs. For you, dead or injured children are just a picture you can choose not to look at, but for a huge number of Ukrainians, it is the reality.

Can you please justify "Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war".

I know you are making this specious statement because if this was the case why Russian government do shenanigans during election? Clearly, many people doesn't support him.

People seem to forget 1 person can control hundreds cattle. And there is high chance, 1 police can easily control 20 people. I have a lot of friends in Russia, and they all share the same sentiment. Many people don't like to live in autocracy. even with propaganda, unless their living standard is extremely high.

It is very difficult to put such complex topic into a post, so let me summarise with bullet points. Let me know what parts to expand or provide sources for:

1. Russia tried to get ahold of Ukraine for multiple centuries already, so it is engraved in the culture of both Ukrainians and Russians.

2. The last time Ukraine lost a war to Russia was in 1920, which was followed by a century of terror and genocide [0] from Russian side which ended in 1991 by the collapse of USSR.

3. Because Ukraine was always considered a rebellious state, a manufactured USSR propaganda was that Russians are "big russians" and Ukrainians are "small Russians". The point was that big Russians where superior in every way, while small russians where uneducated villagers.

4. Ukrainian culture is being denied by Russians for more than a century, by means that Ukrainian language was forbidden, and all major cultural figures were either killed or displaced to Gulags.

5. The collapse of the USSR and the weakening of Russia allowed some of these to be reversed and Ukrainian language and culture started to be getting revived.

6. 30 years later from the collapse of USSR, Russians are still in a full denial of Ukrainian culture and think that Ukrainians are just Russians with anti-russia nazism.

So culturally, Russians are sure that killing all the nazis will return Ukraine to their "brotherhood" and hence wholeheartedly support this "special operation to denazify Ukraine" as it is called by Russian media.

Source: have some of the family in Russia as well as some russian family members in Ukraine, who are completely sure they are helping people of Ukraine right now and support this. All of the deaths and suffering are justified for them, because the "anti-russian nazis" have to be killed anyway.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

> Clearly, many people doesn't support him.

Unfortunately this is not so clear. I've never heard any numbers that would indicate that the explicit support is less than 50%. The most recent figure I've seen is 58%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi... But when I visit Russian reddit (pikabu.ru and d3.ru) I am appalled by the fervent support of this war by the common people, subjectively it feels like 95+%.

To put it bluntly, I believe that the modern Russia is fascist. There are many definitions of fascism, but common themes seem to be:

1. Cult of personality. Putin. Enough said.

2. Powerful and continuing nationalism. Russia has updated their constitution to include article 68 which defines Russian language as "язык государствообразующего народа" that is "the language of state-forming people".

3. Identification of enemies as unifying force. Huge disdain for USA, EU, and NATO. Obama personally steals money from Russia's retirees, EU is being openly described as gayrope.

4. Rampant sexism ... I don't think this can be applied to Russia. In general women from ex-USSR states are pretty badass.

5. Controlled Mass Media. You got it.

6. Obsession with national security. Russia's rhetoric is like that of an abusive spouse: Ukraine forced us to preemptively attack, or otherwise they (Ukr) would have attacked us (Rus).

7. Religion and government intertwined. I'll pull you up a video of Russia's main priest (archbishop? patriarch) blessing this war: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/07/russian-church-lea.... Also there are numerous videos of Russian priests blessing ICBMs: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/6b54ml/a_russian_or...

8. Fraudlent elections. You got it.

9. Rampant croynism and corruption. Yep.

10. Those guys even got their own swastika -- the Z letter. Displayed publicly and numerously.

Please let me know if you want me to elaborate on any of the above points and I'll gladly provide you with examples. I'd elaborate from the start, but there's an air raid siren and I have to run to the bomb shelter :(.

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