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Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

> explain how they are not equivalent

Press. Political competition. Courts. Broadly, the rule of law.

Nobody is perfect at any of these. But if the FSB wants a code change in Kaspersky, they're getting that code change. There is no independent press to report it. No opposition incentivized to call them out on it. No court in which they could lose.

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>> explain how they are not equivalent

> Press. Political competition. Courts. Broadly, the rule of law.

Exactly. Mad-libs "arguments" typically boil down to an invitation to ignore salient differences (which the structure cannot call attention to), make a superficial comparison, and finally arrive at a false equivalency.

While the methods may differ, is this not true of any governments intelligence agencies? Whether or not there is press/courts/rule of law. For press to report on an event they have to be aware of it, for courts to intervene they also have to be aware of it, for rule of law to matter then no part of a government can operate outside of it in any manner, so no extrajudicial actions either.

The point of press/courts/rule of law is that at least you have a chance. Without those, no chance. That matters.

The US is not some monolithic entity. It's almost weirdly schizophrenic. Yes, the government will e.g. use some super-shaky legal arguments to justify torture ahem "enhanced interrogation", but on the other hand Freedom of Information Act requests still get processed. Yes, the NSA will spy on US citizens, but even they feel the need to come up with some legalistic / procedural cover.

Even as the US's checks and balances are tested, and structural inequalities are examined, there is a broad and deep tradition of fighting the government and not going to jail like Navalny.

The traditions and norms of a country's populace, and its institutions really really matter, especially when their institutions are being tested.

Corruption is everywhere, but this is too simplistic a pattern-match.

EDIT> Knight-Ridder did some fantastic and courageous investigative journalism debunking the US casus belli in the run-up to the Iraq Invasion. It didn't stop the invasion, but they were recognized later. Can we imagine that happening in Russia?

> The point of press/courts/rule of law is that at least you have a chance. Without those, no chance. That matters.

I agree with you.

> Knight-Ridder did some fantastic and courageous investigative journalism debunking the US casus belli in the run-up to the Iraq Invasion. It didn't stop the invasion, but they were recognized later. Can we imagine that happening in Russia?

Thanks I’ll check it out

This type of thing is something I wish people would recognize more. In Russia right now, the simple act of participating in a peaceful protest against the war in Ukraine could easily land you in jail. While the US government has at times had a sketchy anti-protest track record, can we really imagine the US federal government attempting to pass a law today that makes it a jail-able offense to speak out against a US military action? (Hint: the answer is, unequivocally, no.)

> This type of thing is something I wish people would recognize more. In Russia right now, the simple act of participating in a peaceful protest against the war in Ukraine could easily land you in jail.

It's even worse than that: merely calling a war a war can land you in jail:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/crisis-in-ukraine-to-russia-it-...:

> Russia insists that it is not at “war” in Ukraine, instead referring to its violent campaign as a “special military operation.” Under a harsh new law, Russians now face up to 15 years in prison if they spread “fake” reports and call the conflict what it is: a “war” and “invasion.”

“there is a broad and deep tradition of fighting the government and not going to jail like Navalny.”

Guess the 98% Federal conviction rate isn’t accounted for when talking about the deep tradition of citizens fighting the government.

Personal opinion, all governments are corrupt, including the US

Dude it's 98% because the feds only take slam dunk cases to trial, and they're extremely professional. Seriously, read up on bad convictions, it's nearly always state or local judicial systems. Frequently it is federal prosecutors that break open the corruption.

All governments are corrupt, but is it remotely plausible they are equally corrupt? Are they not comparable?

hmm FISA, Gag orders, National Secrecy laws, etc all exist in US law, so tell me again how they are different?

Also, as an American Citizen, who has more power to put me the individual in a cage, the FSB or NSA?

Who has more practical power to force code into a security product that runs in a privileged context, without anyone finding out? I think it’s not the NSA.

Why do you believe that, the NSA had access to Cisco PIX systems for years and it was only disclosed once those systems started to be replaced with ASA and other newer hardware.

I dont believe the NSA, CIA or even the FBI really have any actual legal limits.

I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that, due to my citizenship and physical residence location, the NSA is probably more of a threat to my personal freedom than the FSB, but also acknowledge that, all things being equal, the FSB is a shadier organization than the NSA, with fewer legal restrictions on its behavior.

There are no relevant legal restrictions on the NSA behaviour. We know that the NSA breaks the law without any consequences. This idea that Western intelligence is any less corrupt and morally bankrupt, and indeed any less willing to interfere with people outside their borders as anyone else is frankly entirely ridiculous.

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