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Comment by tyrfing | Hacker News Reader

There's quite a bit of that. Pendleton, Duluth Trading, Lands End to name a few in the US. A lot of them offer very boxy fits, but whole categories like workwear are basically "durable and reliable clothing" - or at least pretending to be. A problem arises when you want modern fit + durable + fashionable; that's when you start to see huge price tags.

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Not anymore. Pendleton moved production to China a few years back. Duluth has gone far, far downhill (and killed their lifetime warranty.) Lands End is also a shadow of what it was. You only need to hold the new next to the old to see.

The same goes for LL Bean (killed their lifetime warranty, product quality went way downhill) and Filson (they even killed their slogan "Might as Well Have the Best".)

I'm not sure what's left, to be honest; let me know if anyone knows if high quality clothes still exist anymore.

Pendleton still manufactures fabric in the US - although some product lines are probably made in China these days. The fact is none of these companies have much in the way of margins, if you want higher quality, you just have to spend more.

You’re correct that they don’t have high margins, but what you imply by it is wrong. People commonly confuse margin and markup. Markup is the difference between the cost of the goods and their sale price. (Net) margin is unrelated to the cost of goods and is simply the profit generated as a percentage of revenue.

These businesses have extremely high markups because they spend lots of money on marketing or marketing-adjacent things, plain and simple. It’s typically quite easy to see - around the same time that they’ll shift from made in the USA with a lifetime warranty they’ll start paying “influencers”, hiring marketers, sending things to blogs, maintaining a beefed-up social media presence, increasing ad spend etc. They simultaneously cut material costs by outsourcing and raise marketing spend. Their profit margin may not even be changed - but with the higher growth rates that the marketing spend brings the business is more appealing.

There’s no reason you can’t get quality goods at reasonable prices. LL Bean, although not cheap, was reasonably priced before they slashed quality a few years ago. Darn Tough is not cheap but the prices aren’t crazy and they’re made in the USA with a lifetime guarantee. American Apparel was 100% made in the USA until some years back and was solid quality. Los Angeles Apparel is 100% MiUSA and solid quality, prices are fairly reasonable. Clothing just doesn’t cost that much to make; MiUSA and good quality is possible, it just needs to make a comeback.

I appreciate the discussion, but I don't really see the evidence in the numbers for these companies over the last decade or so, maybe it appears on a 20-30 year timeframe. Their gross margins and SG&A haven't changed significantly, although they have for others like Columbia Sportswear. American Apparel, just to pick out one of your examples, was bankrupted with MiUSA.

I'm wondering about the impact of ecommerce now though, especially higher return rates.

I'm not sure who you're finding data for, but most of these businesses are private and you have to look at other indicators. For LL Bean, for example, I was a loyal customer for years and paid close attention to their website, stores and social media. It was obvious when they dramatically cut the quality of their clothing and increased the gloss and marketing, to the point that an employee at a local store commented on it to me. You can't just cut quality and rest on your laurels, or the brand will slowly die (see American Apparel) - you have to cut quality and increase marketing spend, exploiting your former good name (see LL Bean - quality far down, but revenue way up.)

I don't think that American Apparel was bankrupted by MiUSA - now that they've switched away from MiUSA they seem to be a shadow of their former self. In any case, from 1989 to 2014 was a solid run, and their 2014 demise was quickly followed by other MiUSA companies copying a similar model. I think MiUSA can work - Darn Tough, LA Apparel, New Balance, Allen Edmonds, etc.

I think you may have a point with return rates - with lower markups you'd be more affected.

I've been going shopping for shirts/jeans for 30 years now, and when I see something I like I always pinch it between my fingers to check the fabric. Had a fabulous 100% cotton Polo RL shirt that lasted me 10 years until creases around cuffs and the collar literally disintegrated. Went to the same section just last month and the most expensive, fancy shirt there was as thin as rice paper. You could see through it!

I'm not sure what to do. It might be time to switch to an online source, but then I can't "pinch the fabric" as easily - have to return what I don't like. Wish there was a source with fabric specs, but I have little hope. As it is you can barely get the manufacturers to fess up the material blend, hiding it in between a bunch of other tags in fine print or in weird spots.

The combination of fashionable and durable doesn't make sense: fashions change quickly, so why should an article of clothing outlive the fashion it was meant to serve? To embrace durability in clothing — which I would far rather remain a choice rather than be mandated — you have to embrace social durability, that is, looks that are socially acceptable but not fashionable.

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