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Comment by RHSeeger | Hacker News Reader

To be fair, at least some of that is the streets, not the drivers.

I was in Boston a while back and I came to a crossroads. There was no stop sign, no light, nothing. I eventually just had to... go. I got to my hotel and I asked about it, and the concierge was like, "oh, its just like that". I asked how people are supposed to know to stop (or not to) and he replied, "you just know". It baffled me because _clearly_ you don't just know.. because I was there and I didn't know. What happens if two people just drive through the intersection at the same time.

I get it that crossroads exist like this in the open nowhere. But... in a city? It was mind-boggling to me. Plus... the street layout in Boston was done by throwing pounds spaghetti at a wall and then trying to match the pattern that stuck.

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If you know the rules of the road then there is no ambiguity about which car has the right of way at such an intersection. But most people do not know these rules, and therefore are mystified when there’s no light or sign telling them how to drive.

Given the confusion a lot of people have with the situation, it is absolutely ridiculous not have signs at such an intersection in a city. Arguing that people "should know" is pointless when the end result of not having signs is just going to be more accidents.

I agree that even in a small city like Boston it’s reckless to have uncontrolled intersections, precisely because people don’t know the rules of the road.

My comment was a response to ‘I asked how people are supposed to know to stop (or not to) and he replied, "you just know". It baffled me because _clearly_ you don't just know.. because I was there and I didn't know.’

When I got my license in New York I studied for the written test from a booklet that the DMV gave out. This exact situation was in there. It’s not complicated. But you’re right, there will be accidents, because, even though there are still driving tests, people drive around with “red means stop, green means go” as the only rule that’s stuck in their heads. At least in the US.

I did a bunch of driving in France and what struck me most was the near complete absence of stoplights and even stop signs. Where I was, admittedly smaller places, big intersections are usually roundabouts, and smaller ones have a yield sign or follow "priorité a droit" which is basically a 4-way yield where you yield to the person on the right.

I don't know the traffic accidents stats, but overall the system really does rely on people knowing the rules as opposed to signalization, and it (mostly) seemed to cut down on time spent waiting.

Exactly. It's all about having a mental model of how other people will probably behave.

In Boston, even though everyone drove aggressive, they were predictable. So I felt fine.

Whereas in San Fran, while not as aggressive, other drivers were just random. So I was terrified.

I'm older now, with much reduced acuity and reaction times. My recent visit to El Paso was the most nervous driving experience that I remember. Way worse than LA. I felt like a dog trying to paddle upstream, surrounded by river otters playing.

YMMV.

>I was in Boston a while back and I came to a crossroads. There was no stop sign, no light, nothing. I eventually just had to... go. I got to my hotel and I asked about it, and the concierge was like, "oh, its just like that". I asked how people are supposed to know to stop (or not to) and he replied, "you just know". It baffled me because _clearly_ you don't just know.. because I was there and I didn't know. What happens if two people just drive through the intersection at the same time.

You got there without incident didn't you?

Those sorts of intersections get treated like N-way rolling stops in practice. If there's someone who'll obviously be there first everyone adjusts speed so everyone can roll it without stopping. If multiple vehicles arrive at the same time negotiations ensue.

Does US have different rules about intersections of "equal" roads?

In Europe you give way to the car to your right and that's it. In the rare case where there's a car going in every possible direction, you just honk it out or light signal until one goes first.

The US doesn't really have those basic rules of the road the way most of Europe does. There are essentially no intersections that are not controlled at all by either specific signs or lights. Often, if one road outranks the other, and you're on the lesser road, they will have a stop sign for you and then reinforce it with "CROSS TRAFFIC DOES NOT STOP".

For example, in the UK, roundabouts will be perhaps signposted as coming up - but when you get there, you just yield to the cars already in it, because that's the base law. In the US, roundabouts are less common, and they have a yield sign at every entrance.

Boston is, however, a deviation. Many roads date to the founding of the city and are much like older European cities in terms of layout, but lack any modern signposting.

This is wild, are you telling me that the United States has no concept of the four-way stop?

If I encountered an intersection with no signage at all, the default expectation would be four-way stop.

> This is wild, are you telling me that the United States has no concept of the four-way stop?

The US has the concept, but it's not (in California, at least) the default rule for an uncontrolled intersection. For a regular uncontrolled intersection, it is treated as a four-way yield, only a blind intersection (one with less than 100 foot visibility in any direction in the last 100 feet of approach) is treated as a four-way stop.

> The US doesn't really have those basic rules of the road the way most of Europe does.

Yes, it does. But getting permission to drive is cheap and easy in the US, and many people don't know the rules of the road.

> There are essentially no intersections that are not controlled at all by either specific signs or lights.

There are lots of intersections without signs or lights, IME (admittedly, I haven't driven everywhere in the US.)

We also have a constant influx of new drivers from other areas, so local norms don't have time to gel.

We do. Example from Oregon:

ORS 811.275

(1) A person commits the offense of failure to yield the right of way at an uncontrolled intersection if the person is operating a motor vehicle that is approaching an uncontrolled highway intersection and the person does not look out for and give right of way to any driver on the right simultaneously approaching a given point, regardless of which driver first reaches and enters the intersection.

https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_811.275

Similar rules exist in New York as well.

I'd expect they exist in most places in the US.

There are a lot of state laws that resemble each other, but there are often subtle differences. My point is that there is no overarching coordination other than maybe AASHTO (which can only make recommendations), and legislators are often only interested in the highway department if there's a contract they can steer to a friend.

That's pretty much the same as all the states I've lived in. It does vary some from state to state, but I'd be surprised if that one did.

I love my city but I can see how this would be true for non-Bostonians. If Boston is your home you do just know, in the sense that you know other drivers may not know or care so you are on the lookout for them. You just curse those drivers when you think the've done the wrong thing and move on.

Still have to say though that this is less of an issue recently. Many fewer missing traffic signs than there used to be. I don't care for it :)

All true. That and even the kindliest Bostonian suddenly becomes a sociopath once behind the wheel.

On the other hand, the normally vicious Boston cops have true kindness by not enforcing any traffic laws. I remember a cop car pulling over to let us pass one time when my then gf drove the wrong way* down a one way street.

And a friend was stopped when driving on the wrong side of mass ave (a divided road with a barrier). The cop stopped us, give us both a stern talking to, and then let us go on our merry way.

* She is a physicist and her defense to me was “I was only driving in one direction”

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