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> There is another "cat theory of mind" video where a mother cat purposefully and deliberately retrieves an object its kitten wants to play with, that scientists have talked about on twitter, but I can't find it.

You are likely thinking of https://youtu.be/whVMP6BqcqU

I am! Thank you!

This is a very, very interesting video.

There are other interpretations (that it is for example mum/dad's favourite toy too for example). But it is worthy of discussion.

It seems fairly cut and dry.

I would contend that cats are able to establish a mental model of another animal in their mind and act upon it.

In particular, when hunting a mouse, the cat is thinking about what the mouse is thinking. The "if I hide here, the mouse won't be able to see me when it leaves its mouse hole."

That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence.

> That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence.

Yes -- this is literally "theory of mind", as I understand it.

But the really striking thing is that this sort of stuff you're talking about does not typically count towards theory of mind among scientists.

I mean they would make the counterargument that the cat catching the mouse might simply be learning through reinforcement that relying on their hearing is effectively more successful than relying on both sight and hearing, and that being unable to see the mouse and focussing on the sound leads to better strategies; it's possible the cat does not need to understand that they are invisible to the mouse.

And it is certainly possible for a cat to catch a mouse through long observation of its behaviours without engaging in theory of mind.

But then you watch cats play with each other (or the hilarious videos of cats sneaking up on observers and then freezing) and it's hard to believe they don't understand this.

Hunters are alert to movement -- as you say, a cat is optimised for certain activities. They do also have strong proprioception.

"That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror.

Of course, pets of a species will vary in ability, that's only normal variation. We love them because they are simple, pretty, calming, and sometimes even helpful.

The animals that we love less, we tend to eat.

There's an obvious cognitive limit compared to humans. The theory of mind in humans conjures intentionality everywhere. Despite the (sometimes wildly) erroneous notions that this can produce, there is value in cooperation. Assuming intentionality has been an evolutionary advantage for our species.

Our species domesticated cattle, horses, and dogs because we have what we call "empathy". It's our mind at work building assumptions about the other.

It doesn't take much for the human mind to start imagining intentionality and companionship. Jesse Bering [1] offers the example of the well-known film, The Red Balloon, in which a simple balloon becomes a little boy's companion.

https://slate.com/technology/2011/02/theory-of-mind-and-the-...

Humans love their pets and often project human cognition onto them. It's a human thing. People often project traits onto their children as well. Pets usually avoid some of the worst effects of this projection. ^_^

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Bering

> "That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror.

It does, except that mirrors are not truly a natural phenomenon (most animals, contrary to literature, never really see their reflection in the water, only a shadow). So there is a chance that something more fundamental and novel is going on in the cat's mind.

And in most people's experiences and the view of science, cats do not appear to ever understand it is them in the mirror, whereas other animals (some crows for example) definitely do.

Of course cats know they have ears in the sense that they can touch them themselves. And they know other cats have ears because they can observe them. The question is whether they understand that their ears are the same concept as other cats' ears.

This cat appears very clearly to be learning that, in real time.

Whereas other cats don't ever do this in mirrors. They try to reach the cat in the mirror, they try to outpace it, they try to attack it. They don't usually look in the mirror and then touch their own heads or bodies, and they are not known to be able to pass the mirror dot test, where only understanding that the reflection is actually _them_ should allow them to pass.

This cat looks very much like it could pass the mirror-dot test, and that could be of interest to science.

(Though given how sensitive cats are to things placed on their bodies, how routinely they clean their own faces, and the presence of whiskers on their face, it may actually be impossible to apply the mirror dot test in a way that is meaningful)

> mirrors are not truly a natural phenomenon

That's true of course. Mirrors (looking glasses) are a human construct made to please human psychology.

> So there is a chance that something more fundamental and novel is going on in the cat's mind.

The cat's reaction is interesting, I fully agree. It's a mammalian brain.

But humans will inevitably imagine much more. As part of modern inevitability, social media (another kind of mirror) will be monetised with the wildest speculation.

Next we'll have Feline Blockchain. (Please don't tell me... there is already a subreddit for it?)

> They try to reach the cat in the mirror, they try to outpace it, they try to attack it.

Well, there's the old film trope of a movie character looking in the mirror and then smashing it out of anger.

Perhaps most cats instinct to attack the image of themselves is stronger than the desire to primp.

> Whereas other cats don't ever do this in mirrors. They try to reach the cat in the mirror, they try to outpace it, they try to attack it.

In my experience, most animals, including cats, just flat out ignore mirrors. At least all the pets I've had and that my family has had over the years, none of them ever reacted to themselves in the mirror.

In a way that suggests they do have some kind of understanding that they are just seeing themselves.

For my three cats, there was only an interesting reaction to themselves in a mirror the first time (or the first time in a long while; or sometimes the first time they experienced a specific mirror) they approached the mirror; then they seemed to ignore it (not sure if any picked up the use a mirror skill, as some cats in the article appear to have; I didn't notice it anyway). If you miss that first encounter, you missed it.

I had the same experience. My cat's first encounter with the mirror involved getting mad at the cat in the mirror and attacking it. Every other time after that, the mirror was completely ignored. They certainly did display cleverness in other contexts, such as figuring out how to open cabinets, or figuring out from the outside of the house which room we slept in so she could bang on the window to be let back in.

Such confidence and such ignorance, a powerful combo. I recommend you go spend some more time around wild animals or you'll continue to have trouble seeing the continuity between us and "the animals". We could be better stewards.

> Such confidence and such ignorance

The fact is that I am probably very much like you. Except that I won't throw barbs at a stranger who may in fact be a good person. Site rule: assume the best intentions. ^_^

I happen to love nature and animals. I guess we would agree about the terrible environmental consequences of human industry and consumerism. We have scaled the our greed and selfishness too far to hide it from ourselves anymore.

I'm not like you, bruv. I'd never un-ironically say "The animals that we love less, we tend to eat." Human-animal relations are a tad more complicated than that.

Incidentally the greatest moment in this video is not the "oh... that's what those are" moment, looking in the mirror.

The greatest moment is the head-turn and the wide-eyed look on her face as she is sitting down. Like: "oh this changes everything".

"How am I gonna tell the others.."

Does this self awareness mean cats have evolved now? Does this hold any consequence? Genuinely curious. I did not study any biology, so I don't know where this leads us.

I don't know. But after twenty years of cats around me as a kid, that video never ceases to confound me.

Because I've only ever seen cats confused, agitated or completely avoidant around mirrors.

I'd always assumed the avoidant thing was, you know, "don't look at the mirror cat and it won't look at me, and we won't have to have the fight where nobody wins".

But the ears video makes me wonder if cats don't look at mirrors because they can't quite process the implications.

My cats like mirrors? They use them to look at themselves and around corners while stalking each other. I don't think they particularly like being seen in mirrors any more than being seen normally though (which makes sense for small, specialized, ambush predators in the middle of the food chain).

Make videos of this.

There really is a conventional scientific view that cats are not capable of passing typical mirror-related self-awareness tests.

But it strikes me that the problem might be that the tests just aren't designed to test cats.

Every cat we’ve ever had very clearly understood mirrors. If that’s really the conventional view of scientists in the field, that’s basically willful ignorance.

Should be simple enough to prove, here is the test to pass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

Understanding how to track others in mirrors is one thing -- understanding with clarity that the cat in the mirror is them, is actually another.

The mirror dot test (which I imagine needs to be done really carefully with cats since they instinctively clean their own faces and necks, and have sensitive whiskers) shows whether the animal fully understands that the reflection is specifically of them, and can use that reflection to solve a puzzle.

I have said elsewhere that it's kind of just about possible for the ears-in-the-mirror cat to not understand the mirror cat is herself, but it is an increasingly implausible alternative.

The mirror dot test may have its limitations on a species basis, but it is not easy to come up with a universal test.

Yes, this is not normal.

Our cat does too.

We have a bathroom just off our living room that has a very large mirror above the vanity. The cat likes to get drinks out of the bathroom sink (we’re trained).

If she sits on a corner of the vanity when the bathroom door is open, she can see the living room in the mirror. She will stare into the mirror until she sees someone look at her. When she catches your eye, the meowing to turn on the sink begins.

She also stares at herself in a hallway mirror a lot. We think she thinks she’s pretty.

One of my cats looks me in the eyes through my bathroom mirror on a nearly daily basis, often meowing at me while doing so. He also likes nuzzling his face up against mine while our faces are close to the mirror, almost like he enjoys seeing us cuddling as much as actually cuddling.

Same with my cat as well! I am not sure she gets the mirror exactly; but Shem sometimes will watch us through it, otherwise just ignores it. She is never troubled by them.

My mother's cats love to hide behind things to bat at the other walking through, ambushing them.

After realizing the mirror could be used to spot a potential assailant and take evasive measures, they stopped trying to get each other at the doorway to my mother's bedroom.

I often wonder if animals don't do human things because they're too busy enjoying other desires and emotions. We run after abstract arts, concepts, way to craft tools etc etc but if they hit some kind of equilibrium and their brain just prunes stuff because they'd rather sit in the sun enjoying the wind. I used to be obsessed by ideas and nowadays all I want to do is sit near a pond around family, hug and watch the view :)

Perhaps the key here is the cat saw only its ears first, which looked like two potential targets. Then it had to reprocess after it realized they were attached.

Yeah. Though the typical view is that cats do not ever grasp that it is them in the reflection at all. That moment is just completely fascinating.

> apparently understands that it is its own reflection

No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do.

It's just very easy for us to see all sort of human behaviors in our pets.

> No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do.

That is certainly the conventional belief.

But that conventional belief is founded on a single fundamental test (the mirror-dot test) that may simply be difficult to apply to cats.

Other animals were thought not to be able to recognise themselves until they passed that test.

When they pass the test, we say that animals of that species can recognise themselves in the mirror. It's a single observation.

So the question then becomes: are we so sure about that test?

If you have not watched the video, watch it a few times.

The only other really sensible explanation is that the cat only gets this far:

The mirror cat does everything I do! Every time! I know the thing on the wall has the mirror cat in. I can only see the mirror cat's ears... Ears are interesting. Do my ears look like that? Since the mirror cat matches my every movement, that must be what my ears look like. So if I rub my paws on my ears, and watch the mirror cat copy me, I should be able to confirm that interpretation...

The cat is definitely performing a slow, precise movement in order to watch what happens in the mirror. She sits up to make sure she can see it, before she does it. (She doesn't need to sit up to clean her own ears without looking). It's far too deliberate and studied; we know what cats look like when they are concentrating on movement.

That she comes up short of realising that the mirror cat is herself is definitely plausible. But even then it is demonstrating an enhanced theory of mind, because it involves predicting that the mirror cat's actions will always match her actions, that this can be used to test an idea, and that conclusions can be drawn about what she must look like when doing the same actions.

At some point, we have to accept that the idea that we are wrongly projecting our unique intelligence onto other animals is actually pretty arrogant.

I've had many cats over the years. They absolutely do understand reflections. I've watched them learning it in real time. Kittens will often try to get behind the mirror, play with the reflection, etc and over time most of them learn it's a reflection or at least not another cat and lose interest. I've frequently seen cats spot movement behind them in a mirror and turn around to investigate further. Makes perfect sense to me considering animals have been seeing their reflections in water for millions of years. It's not like they just recently learned what a reflection is.

> Makes perfect sense to me considering animals have been seeing their reflections in water for millions of years. It's not like they just recently learned what a reflection is.

I suppose. But I think this point is in danger of being overstated. Mostly animals don't see their own reflections in water; they certainly see others' reflections in water. But when you're close enough up to see a full reflection of your face in water, what you largely see is a shadow.

Yes, the shadow has a reflection in it, but I suspect that is quickly disregarded without much contemplation of what it means.

Mirrors are another matter entirely. You can really interrogate a mirror by seeing your own reflection at considerable distance, which is usually not possible with water.

Plus you can do so at leisure, because you are not necessarily prone at that point, whereas a cat at the waterline is at risk of attack.

So I don't know if, in the scheme of things, much about reflection has had a significant impact, until the mirror.

Edit to add: the fact that some intelligent birds are able to pass the mirror dot test might make sense in this concept of how easy a reflection is to comprehend. Birds have after all had millions of years of opportunities to interrogate their reflection in water at different heights, and to see a much clearer and more complete image of their own reflection. For a bird, still water really could be a mirror.

Wow. Yeah, that video is thought provoking.