Never hose out a Honda Element | Hacker News Reader

Never hose out a Honda Element

fifthelementcamping.com

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I don't get it - would you would think you can hose out a consumer car like this, with the fabric seats and all that plastic trim? I've hosed out Land Rovers, but they're clearly an off-road vehicle designed for wading.

I was looking at one of these at the dealership in the early 2000's and the sales guy told me I could just hose it out after a day at the beach. It seemed plausible considering there was no carpeting and the seats could be folded up.

Yup, I heard the same thing.

My buddy bought one and he would hose his out all the time.

My roommate did the same. I remember him telling me that was one of the key reasons he bought it as he was an avid camper and would take the dog along and let everything get dirty then hose it out.

Having driven Land Rovers in the form of series, defender and discovery, I wouldn’t hose one out either. The upholstery rots and stinks and the fittings go rusty too. If you’re doing wading and off road stuff you need to tear the entire guts out and start again. And then the bulkhead equipped vehicles will fall to bits within a few years as well.

I've been hosing out my Defenders and wading them above the door seals for years and there's no significant rust yet. They have rubber floor mats instead of upholstery. But they are maintained professionally.

You won’t find it until your foot goes through something or something falls off. I had a 1990 defender 90 which was 8 years old and the bulkhead was invisibly rotten in various places. That got very expensive very quickly. A friend has a more modern 110 that’s only 6 years old and has the same problem.

This is not an issue in some areas and dry climates as a rule but in the UK it sucks owning one.

I don’t own one now. I drive a little French go cart then I use my legs for off road. They last longer, don’t go rusty and run on dried fruit and sandwiches.

This is why I laugh when I see 90's era defenders selling for $80k in the states.

Are you Remi Gaillard?

I disclaim all responsibility for chucking bananas out of my French go cart

If memory serves - I have never put it to the test - my HZJ78 Land Cruiser owner's manual says wading depth is 700mm (doors closed), 875mm (doors open) - presumably the added depth with doors open is down to the reduced buoyancy.

Part of me really wants to try it out once, though.

I think the new Defender is 900mm doors closed, which is pretty deep!

Aren't most parts of land rover bodies aluminum?

https://www.thrillist.com/cars/9-things-you-didn-t-know-abou...

Yeah. They chassis and bulkhead is made of steel though. This tends to rust very quickly when bonded to aluminium parts.

> This tends to rust very quickly when bonded to aluminium parts

Isn’t it the other way around? Aluminium has a lower reduction potential than iron, so the aluminium should be the first to go. Even lower than zinc, which uses the same mechanism in sacrificial anodes and galvanisation.

I once had the idea of attaching “sacrificing cathodes” made of iron to aluminium beverage cans to make them go away faster when discarded in the environment, but that just causes more problems than it solves, so it’s better stick with container deposit schemes.

That's a super interesting thought, the sacrificial anode thing to break down cans faster. If only there was a mechanism like that we could harness to accelerate the breakdown on plastics.

A lot of Landrovers used in off roady places around the world are ex-army models. Maybe they were more water tolerantly trimmed. E.g. at one point you could buy Landrover Rover Wolf fairly cheap I think

Not really. The wolfs suck. 24v electrics and stripped bare of everything even remotely nice. And yes they go rusty too. They mostly tend to survive in desert climates longer as they are surrounded by desiccants and clever engineers who can weld things that fell off back on again.

Stripped bare is a feature. Less shit that can go wrong.

This. I don't get the tendency to want an ultra-capable off-road vehicle and then kit it out like a luxury roadster with a bunch of "tech" that is going to break in the first water crossing.

Worked on a farm one time where one of the work trucks was literally a Ford F350 King Ranch edition. Super powerful vehicle, but the wood trim and leather seats were no help when you had just been on your hands and knees in mud and diesel fuel...

Creature comforts are great for family/touring cars, but they are a liability in extreme terrain.

I have a 2004 Discovery 3 which was specced in the highest possible trim at the time, I've been driving it off road for nearly 2 decades now and it's still absolutely fine. The only feature on it which is actually broken is the driver seat heating. Everything else, including the armrest fridge, works fine. 210k miles, no major repairs with the engine(4.4L V8 petrol). I had to get the chassis rustproofed few years back and the air suspension compressor replaced twice, but that's about it when it comes to "big" repairs.

My point is - I'd absolutely buy another highly specced, full of tech vehicle for offroading. Disco 3s were meant to be "catastrophic" in terms of electrical problems but I didn't really have many issues with mine. The only catastrophic thing about it is the insane fuel consumption(my long term average is 15L/100km, which actually at the current fuel prices is financially ruinous)

Having worked in "extreme terrain" conditions for much of my adult life, and now work my own farm, I completely disagree. You don't want to be spending significant portions of your day in a "stripped bare" platform. Maybe thats ok for a couple of hours rock crawling twice a month (not that I would call that extreme terrain!), but not for any actual utility.

Why is this, what features give you value ?

For example air conditioning prevents heat exhaustion.

Heated and massaging seats, auto deploying running boards and tailgate step for your aching back

360 degree camera for maneuvering in tight spaces

110V outlet for charging tools

Sunroof you can stick your head out of to get a higher vantage point

None of these have I ever needed in my previous life as a country boy.

Most of my tooling was petroleum, and I had no back problems. I will be the first to admit that maneuvers in tight spaces was definitely a learn by fire trial.

In no particular order, but equipment I recognise I use frequently. Probably missing a bunch of other stuff.

  - Cab heating (keep warm when cold)
  - engine block heater (start vehicle below -25C)
  - windscreen wipers (clear snow/dust from windows)
  - demister/deicer (quickly clear fog/ice from windows)
  - air suspension seats (stop spine popping out of butt)
  - Cab air-conditioning (keep cool when hot)
  - cab air filtration (reduce chance of nasty lung conditions / death)
  - power-steering (be able to turn without arms falling off)
  - wet-braking (nice to have breaks when you need them)
  - a handbrake that works (safely keep vehicle running while unmanned)
  - multiple lockable diffs (you WILL get stuck in mud without these)
  - multiple range gearing (go super slow without stalling and also go fast enough on highway)
  - quick-reverse (switch from forwards to backwards quickly)
  - reversing/positioning cameras (so you dont hit stuff you dont want to hit, and do hit stuff you want to hit)
  - bluetooth entertainment system (podcasts, audiobooks)
  - soundproofing (soooo loud otherwise)
  - winch (get unstuck without waiting for help)
  - CTIS (save about 20 mins a day solely adjusting tyre pressure from field/road)

Im sure you can do without a bunch of that, but you will just be miserable for much of the year (or you dont actually spend much time operating).

I guess you could add safety equipment to that as well. Rollcage, multi-point harness, etc. Theres also the obvious stuff that you just need to do the job - tow hitches, 3-pt mounts, PTOs, etc.

> Stripped bare is a feature. Less shit that can go wrong.

I don't understand this attitude. Stripped bare also means you have less shit that can go right. Don't just do a cost analysis, do a cost/benefit analysis.

Better cab ergonomics leads to less driver fatigue, which leads to less accidents and therefore less downtime. Sometimes it actually pays off to have a higher maintenance workload, especially since most of it is planned downtime, or features that don't have fixed urgently. And sometimes this idea of radical simplicity only shifts maintenance workload from one component to another. One example that gets a lot of pushback in US trucking is steering trailer axles. They are indeed more "shit that can go wrong", but not having them and constantly dragging your tires means you're going to have to spend more time changing and re-treading your tires. Look at the whole system, not just one feature in isolation.

> Don't just do a cost analysis, do a cost/benefit analysis.

This is exactly why I have reached the conclusion that I have. The extras are not a considerable enough benefit in situations that I find myself in. Doing industrial work doesn't lead to the benefit of the extras.

It may be that those of us see this don't overvalue optional extras that have significantly less practical value than the marketing suggests.

Industrial work is precisely where the extras start to really matter.

In a truck used purely for recreation the stakes are pretty low. Being mildly uncomfortable to and from your fishing trip isn't realistically going to cost you anything financially, and your unpleasant memories of the drive will soon fade in favor of the pleasant memories of the fishing. And even if you are hauling colossal boat on a big multi-axle trailer, the tires are probably going to go bad from age long before you need to replace them due to wear.

But if you're maintaining a big fleet of work vehicles, the stakes are suddenly a lot higher, because everything you do is going to affect your bottom line. Poor cab ergonomics will affect people's entire workdays and workweeks, and will cost you in higher employee turnover, and higher delay, rework and accident rates. And fuel, tires and other wear items are also going to be huge items on your operating budget, so it would be foolish not to try to see what extras you can find to mitigate them.

I'd love to see the studies supporting this evidence, however I imagine if it exists its locked up behind proprietary doors.

It was very widely reported that the car interior was designed to be washed with a hose. That would have been a big selling point for me except that it only had four seats, and it looked like a shed.

It's barely a shed. Check out the cybertruck for something that looks like a backyard shed.

It's not a bad thing necessarily, a rolling shed would be great for hauling things around and the Element especially has an amazing cargo opening when the doors open up. I should qualify that I'm used to driving compact to midsized sedans and wagons, so most CUVs look like sheds to me, but the Element especially so.

Don't get me started on the Cybertruck though, it really does look like a pole barn.

The author references the "hose" comment in the 1998 unveiling of the concept car that would become the Element, but I think they greatly underplay the degree to which this idea caught on with the public and in the press, especially in non-automotive publications.

I'm pretty sure it was an issue of Wired in the early 2000s where I read about this futuristic new SUV from Honda with, among other clever details, "a floor you could hose down." It became an unofficial selling point for the Element, and I would imagine most people exposed to the meme never knew the vehicle was not in fact designed for such a use until they saw this blog post.

Truth. I recommended a Honda Element to a friend of mine who wanted a cute car, but who had a tendency of destroying cars.

Among our friends, somehow the "hose down" talking point was common knowledge. This was maybe 16 years back, so I do not recall how we came to this idea.

They ended up buying a stickshift VW bug. Which they abused in many weird ways.

Destroyed a couple Honda Fits since the bug.

I'm tentatively morbidity curious what happened to the VW bug, Fits and other cars this friend came in contact with.

I'm also interested!

I know a few classes of car destroyers. Some of them get into serious crashes. Some of them are more persistently mildly abusive or inattentive and do a lot of cosmetic and cleanliness damage. One person I know does ultra marathoning and uses his car like a locker room, so it smells like a great multitude of new bacterial species. Another one does zero maintenance and runs things until they don't go, ignoring all the warning messages.

My friend is for sure the inattentive type.

This extends to road conditions. Getting stuck on medians, taking a corner in the rain too fast. Not noticing a tree while parking. Not noticing brakes making horrible screaming sounds. Not noticing after weeks of screaming sounds that the car starts diving for the left lane.

At that point they're a danger for others on the road.

With my other comment upthread taken into account, and some awkward but necessary discussion about mental health gotten out of the way, I wonder if it might be an interesting idea to try track/rally racing.

My thinking is here that if your friend has ADHD, that naturally imposes a "don't want to develop focus on details because not interesting" <-> "unaware of details in everyday life because no developed subconscious awareness of them" problem.

Track and rally racing could neatly solve both sides of this status quo by merging them a la "oh no must learn to focus on details so as not to flip car and die". The idea would be to create a situation that is interesting enough to supercede the "I will treat this situation like a TV remote I have no idea how to use and push all the buttons on it until it works" instinct, by tuning the mental stimulus on the situation to correct for the inattentiveness threshold. A bit like putting music on to concentrate, just... faster. It's crazy enough it might work, *if* the caveats and risks can be managed.

Apparently race drivers have the lowest reflexes of any sport. That sounds both like a good skill to have if you're inattentive, and kind of mutually incompatible with inattentiveness in the first place (like if you're a race driver it would basically just kick the inattentiveness out the window to some extent).

Obviously this is a vErY bAd iDeA on its face, and would only be wise after some analysis of mental dysfunction and if this person was prepared to listen to everything the trained driver in the passenger seat was instructing them to do (in terms of pacing and learning and not simply just going "yay!" *floor accelerator*).

I don't think he is mentally dysfunctional, beyond possibly ADHD. He just finished his PhD, and is fluent in 3 languages (English, Spanish, Japanese). If he finds something he's interested in, he'll dedicate his whole life to it and even minimize his social life until he's achieved whatever goal he's set out. I don't know what you'd call that. Driving is a thing he does in between the things he really wants to do, which is work and study mostly.

> if this person was prepared to listen to everything the trained driver in the passenger seat was instructing them to do

Not really his personality. Definitely a "figure it out yourself" type, and puts boundaries around the help and advice he asks for. Fiercely independent is I guess what you'd call it, definitely because of how he grew up (which I gather his family housed him, and fed him, but he mostly took care of himself emotionally).

Definitely one of the more interesting people I know. Incredibly brilliant and talented at certain things, and wayyyyyyyy behind the curve in other areas.

> If he finds something he's interested in, he'll dedicate his whole life to it and even minimize his social life until he's achieved whatever goal he's set out. I don't know what you'd call that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus

Zooming out into the abstract, it's interesting to observe the hazy relationship between ADHD and autism: https://web.archive.org/web/20220313151543/https://twitter.c... - this is IMO an (interesting) example of structural multitasking/executive function issues and not just generalized hand-wave obsession.

>> if this person was prepared to listen to everything the trained driver in the passenger seat was instructing them to do

> Not really his personality. Definitely a "figure it out yourself" type, and puts boundaries around the help and advice he asks for.

I have to admit I'm actually the same as this, due to a combination of learning difficulties and compounded negative experiences associated with getting things wrong. I still typically view tasks or opportunities in a very guarded way and tend to put a lot of conditions on things in an attempt to pin down the "win" state.

Hmm, the trained driver could instead demonstrate several possible ways the car could be flipped, in a (very relatively) controlled and safe way.

> Fiercely independent is I guess what you'd call it, definitely because of how he grew up (which I gather his family housed him, and fed him, but he mostly took care of himself emotionally).

I was wondering about the emotional availability thing, very good point. It's so annoying how learning difficulties can be compounded so exponentially by receiving the wrong input :(

In a total coincidence I just discovered https://old.reddit.com/r/StoriesAboutKevin earlier today - when I first stumbled on the Kevin concept some time ago (from the specific comment I linked) I had the fairly "haha so dumb" stereotype response, but reading so many stories in one place a deeper theme emerges around developmental balance and equilibrium. Half of these people are not hopeless lost causes but adequately-functioning people with a couple of mental health issues that just happen to cluster too closely around the "??!?!" end of the cognitive dissonance spectrum in ways that on first impression look like things a person should "just" have sorted out, and which are entirely the person's fault (with no consideration of circumstances etc) if they don't. It's a tad depressing this is a very nonscalable perspective I guess. I'd probably be a mid-range candidate for that subreddit myself ._.

I am not clear if you are suggesting my friend is on the autism spectrum or not.

But let me say: I would be surprised if he is. You probably have a mental image of how he speaks, and how he relates with people and it is probably wrong.

He is a very charming person, as well as incredibly good at reading people. In his native language (Japanese) he can charm the pants off of anyone. I liken it to anecdotes of how Bill Clinton can win over even bitter political opponents once they meet in person. I have never seen anything like it. He is still pretty charming in his other languages.

He can talk with a total stranger for just a few minutes and come away with something incredibly insightful about their character that I had never understood even knowing those people myself for years. His PhD is in Business Psychology.

But despite all this he is also kind of an obsessive loner driven by interests. As I say, he is one of the most interesting people I know.

Thanks very much for humoring my curiosity and engagement :) I'm developmentally catching up on, well, understanding people in general (alongside *gestures at everything*, now I *can*) so I'm very interested.

> I am not clear if you are suggesting my friend is on the autism spectrum or not.

I actually have no particular leaning in either direction because I know I don't have enough data. Unfortunately this directly translated to me leaving the bit about autism hanging somewhat. I'm... not really sure how to "cross the T" in this instance actually.

> But let me say: I would be surprised if he is. You probably have a mental image of how he speaks, and how he relates with people and it is probably wrong.

Noted, and very interesting. (I incidentally have a giant void because I have no data.)

I think I vaguely understand what you mean - autistic people (particularly high-functioning types) tend to have a... very hard to describe oddity about their high-level presentation and carriage in general, the way they look at the world, their mannerisms and idiosyncrasies, etc. Kind of a cross between executive dysphoria and the ("and now we close the tab :D") unsettlement I associate with trypophobia (fear of holes in things) - it's like a random bunch of things are either missing or developmentally short-circuited in a way that's both hard to pinpoint but can be just... off.

Some autistic people seem to be able to technically absolutely nail communication, and in the grand scheme of improbable things I might go "......?" about whether this person has autism to some extent, but practically speaking I see where you're coming from since autism is an incredibly fragmenting disorder and communication is basically the pinnacle of psychological and emotional expression and dexterity (for want of a better way to put it), and requires a rock-solid foundation of cohesion in order to, well, not wind up as the above ^.

So, one less thing to have to worry about I guess.

> He is a very charming person, as well as incredibly good at reading people. In his native language (Japanese) he can charm the pants off of anyone. I liken it to anecdotes of how Bill Clinton can win over even bitter political opponents once they meet in person. I have never seen anything like it. He is still pretty charming in his other languages.

I've always wanted to learn how to do that - try as I might to focus on harmony and cohesion I tend to get tangled up in semantics about behavioral minutiae and trip over my shadow (as it trips over itself). I don't have great attention span in this area ._.

> He can talk with a total stranger for just a few minutes and come away with something incredibly insightful about their character that I had never understood even knowing those people myself for years. His PhD is in Business Psychology.

Coooool.

> But despite all this he is also kind of an obsessive loner driven by interests. As I say, he is one of the most interesting people I know.

Hrm. I just remembered something I forgot about reading on here a while back... it's in The Bookmarks, somewhere, hopefully I can re-find it again one day lol. It was about a person who became a master at picking pockets in entertainment settings, who'd had an experience with some sort of coordinational disorder - perhaps something like polio, or a neurological issue - that was able to be rectified around 4-7, but required he basically re-learn how to walk and coordinate his limbs. Reflecting on the article at the time I wondered if having to concentrate on relearning proprioception, coordination and dexterity at pretty much the peak mental learning/integration period left him with a much higher-fidelity conscious mental map of how those normally-subconscious processes work internally, and paved the way to naturally hone a 10x level of proficiency and fluency in how humans move, where their focus and attention is, etc.

Generalizing this idea, on the one hand the mental early-development integration process is kind of an incredible feat of empathetic normalization and search for balance and equilibrium, on the other hand its function and operation is not at all immune to influence by constitutional and environmental context. Extrapolating off of the bits about emotional availability mentioned upthread, I wonder if there's any correlation between early impactful/formative experiences and the present-day balance of equilibrium and cohesion (psychology, charm and perception) on one side of the coin, and guarded and wary learning/possibly executive focus/trust on the other.

It's perhaps plausible to imagine a self-healing/rebalancing process that identified a need to take charge and internalized that from a certain perspective (eg, an early deep impression that being hyper-aware of, understanding and winning other people would drastically improve survival instincts) and maximized for that. Now I'm wondering (from a systems analysis perspective) whether the hyperfocus/loner perspective was a sort of flip-side of that emotional commitment (eg due to what might be described as paperclip maximization), or simply the byproduct of ADHD.

Huh. I'm not really sure where to go with this now :) on the one hand building accurate understandings of how the human mind develops and works is something I greatly appreciate the opportunity to pursue, on the other hand my empathy isn't used to the "screwdriver acquired" and "now the personality is in several pieces on the table" bit! That part's awkward.

Reminds me of the time I parked at a shopping mall next to an oddly parked car which otherwise looked normal except for a small mountain of what I think were used coffee grounds between the driver's seat and front passenger seat. This was in Seattle.

Is this maybe supposed to work like putting coffee grounds into the fridge to absorb bad smells?

That is certainly possible, and might be the only explanation that makes sense.

(Note also the reply at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31011310 in case you haven't seen it)

There are so many stories...

I will start before the Bug:

Daewoo Nubira: Drove it until the brakes fell off. Among other oopsies.

VW Bug: Among about $5k in damage from various bad decisions, eventually somehow got T-Boned on his way to traffic safety school. (Too many speeding tickets) He literally rolled up to traffic safety school in a wrecked car.

Fit: I have asked a few times about the Honda fits. First time went like, "Hey is that the same Fit as before?" "No, shutup."

No longer driving a Fit. Not sure what he has.

It has been a colorful friendship.

Maybe at some point you should suggest to your friend that they start taking driving more seriously before they kill someone.

I'd be stunned if they haven't injured someone yet.

I just don't get how "bad driver" is a haw-haw thing instead of a "what the hell wrong with you" thing.

It's both. I try to exert some good influence where I can, but in general I do worry a lot about that particular friend.

My initial response was to suggest that next time you do anything like truth-or-dare, dare him to install a dashcam and press the save button and send you the footage every time. But that's obviously not really going to have a hilarious endgame at the end of the day, it's not like it'd be a lucky dashcam that's always in the right place at the right time capturing other cars. It'd just be awkward for everyone.

Objectively speaking (in the interests of constructive assistance) I wonder if this person may be somewhere around "low but definitely non-zero" on the Kevin Spectrum (ad-hoc definition taken from https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/219w2o//cgbhkwp/). If relevant, my next thought is whether some degree of cognitive issues may run in the family.

I've noticed that one of the significant impacts of the developmental delays and perpetual catchup associated with my high-functioning autism has been a deeply-ingrained awareness of not just feeling "behind the curve" like I'm perpetually scrambling to keep up, but having hard evidence left right and center that I really am not simply Getting Gud.

If this person grew up in either a hostile environment that cultivated a belief that it was impossible to ever do anything right, or simply a situation devoid of leadership to the extent he was left going round in circles due to lack of (for want of a better way to say it) developmental autocue, I could totally see some really terrible social anxiety, self-loathing, social detachment, and compounded awkwardness and depression developing from that.

Getting traffic-jammed at the entry to a speedway that always seems too fast to merge onto, or stuck in front of a street curb with duckling legs that never grow to the point of scaling, can have an impact over the long term - The Show Must Go On, and staying relevant isn't really a question in the fight for survival, so the only really viable option is to hack it and pretend that everything mostly works.

Extrapolating this status quo and envisaging the worst-case-scenario end state, I'd imagine it would be like waking up one day and realizing the biggest themes in my life were a) the giant delta between how much I pretend to have sorted out and what I can really keep up with, b) how much I'm pretty much blindly depending on some circumstantial alignment to happen soon to provide some opportunity to catch up and maybe get some confidence, c) the terrifyingly disproportionate amount of calling life's bluff I'm doing on a regular basis and d) how much I have have to cram this stuff into the nearest can and sit on the lid in order to cope.

If the situation I was in resembled the above, attempting to discuss it (particularly considering (d)) would probably produce a reactive and shouty mess. It would be very difficult. But it could prove life-saving.

Props to your friend, I think it really takes some determination to destroy not one, but two Honda Fits (or Jazz, as it's called over here in Europe).

Nice little cars, I was looking at maybe purchasing one but unfortunately their "fame" got to them so that the latest generation/variant is a little over-priced compared to other models from the same class, or so it seems to me.

As my friend discovered all it really takes is letting it sit in your driveway for a year (COVID) and the squirrels getting at the wiring...

Still, count yourself lucky. In the US, they stopped selling them, opting to push people toward the HR-V instead. I'm not much of a car guy, but I have a Fit which I bought used for under $10k cash, low mileage, etc. The HR-V is significantly more expensive and doesn't offer anything I particularly need for the added cost, so if I were to replace my current Fit, I wouldn't be likely to buy an HR-V.

I think you are right, here is Popular Science (December 2002):

"The Element's rubber floors can be hosed down, ...."

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0BvVSP2ugU4C&lpg=PA47&dq=ho...

I had looked at a Honda Element it was meant to be a utility vehicle of sorts meaning you could get it dirty and clean it easily.

The floors as I recall were tough, rough, bumpy plastic very thick. It was obvious the intention of the vehicle with a flat rear floor in the rear of the vehicle was meant to be used to carry things not just people.

I will say I absolutely preferred my 'farmer spec' base model truck that had, among other things, plastic on the floor rather than carpet. Much easier to vacuum and brush out the dried mud and dirt. Never did try to take a hose to it.

Wranglers have fabric and plastic trim, and they specifically advertise that the floor can be hosed out. The difference is that it has drains (and floor != seat).

They do not advertise that (at least not in North America) - the carpet will get ruined.

They do. I checked before I posted my comment.

Page 32:

> WASHABLE INTERIOR Not only is the carpet weather resistant, but it can be removed to reveal drain plugs that, when opened, allow the floor to be easily hosed out. Standard.

https://mydigimag.rrd.com/publication/?co=US&pid=497&pc=J-JL...

You can order them with vinyl flooring for that very reason IIRC.

The carpet is specifically mold-resistant and even removable. I guess if you're in a humid climate, you need to make sure it dries fully as soon as possible; not as much of a concern in the Southwest.

The drains I remember well. I spent a couple hours trying to get a friend's Wrangler extricated from a mudhole deep enough to where the floorboards were submerged in water that was just above freezing. Wasn't fun keeping a foot on the gas pedal to keep pressure on the now-underwater exhaust.

After we finally got him winched out of the hole, all the water immediately drained out.

I don't know where the meme came from but I've heard it from two independent Honda Element owners, and it comes up on random SEO-spam blogs as a benefit of the Element if you're searching for "dog-friendly" cars. I never thought to question it myself - the trunk area does look like something you could hit with a hose. Glad this made #1 on Hacker News before I bought one!

It's in the video embedded at the bottom. What appears to be a representative of Honda says the following about the then-concept car (0:40):

"It's got kind of a wash-and-wear interior. You can kind of completely hose out the interior if you wanted to."

This is why "kind of" is such a popular caveat.

And why "if you wanted to" is such a brilliant disclaimer.

He was also talking about the concept car, not the production car.

"I hit a skunk, Karen"

Only time I hosed out a car is my uncle's car when it ended up in the ocean. Was low-tide and tons of seagrass on the boat launch. Lost traction and just slowly slid all the way into the ocean. Actually turned out OK after a serious fresh-water bath and carefully drying out everything.

Hosing out a car under normal circumstances is insane. I recently worked on a Dodge 12V diesel 1994 truck. Removed all interior carpet and WIPED out all the nastiness and vacuumed up the bits etc. Got it down to the metal and really nice and clean. Then layered up on Dynamat in prep for installing a high-end sound system and got a great result.

Unless you've destroyed the vehicle anyway by dipping it in sea-water, don't hose out your car.

A really great check to do if you're buying used is to look under the driver's seat for rust. It indicates flooding. In the case of pickups, it means they either submerged it or used it as a mudder. Red flag. Walk away.

How do you see the metal under the drivers seat? Every car I have owned has had wall to wall carpet, including under the seats.

you remove the seats?

LOL What? Do you seriously remove the driver's seat when you are car shopping?

Don't you lol what me. You are making this about car shopping. mmaunder wrote about removing the carpet to clean. Ofc you don't remove the carpet of a car you want to buy. I would never had guessed that you meant 'see the metal' in a car shopping context, as it's as easy as breathing to flip some carpet over and get a sense of the floors state.

mmaunder also wrote:

> A really great check to do if you're buying used is to look under the driver's seat for rust. It indicates flooding. In the case of pickups, it means they either submerged it or used it as a mudder. Red flag. Walk away.

which is probably what the parent post was addressing with how do you check this?

You just slide it back all the way and then slide it forward all the way.

Look at the seat rails and seat mounting brackets. They're pretty much never galvanized, just painted a light matte black and work great as slow acting moisture detectors. Trim covers them up these days, but move the seat all the way forwards or back and you'll usually either see some of that metal or be able to get to a position where you can. They'll also rust over time due to long term high humidity from a leaking window or door seal, or shoddy crash repair, or a slow leak from the heater core, so even if it's not flood damage there might be other issues.

My dads Toyota Hilux was a rustbucket when he bought it 20 years ago. Still runs "fine", despite lots of use in the intervening years carrying highly corrosive NPK fertilizer on the farm.

A bit of rust isn't anything to be scared of so long as you know it's there.

The old TopGear trio put a hilux threw hell, ocean, on top of an imploded building, and more. It "ran" still at the end of it.

https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Toyota_Hilux#Indestructible_...

Engine starts, car moves. Good enough for me.

I had a Jeep Cherokee where the only thing separating my feet from the road was the carpet. Would that satisfy your standards?

that is when you pull the carpet lay some cardboard over the hole and put down some fiberglass and sell the vehicle. Old car salesman trick

Here in Finland the classic way was to wait for winter, slip a wet the rag rug under the carpet and let it freeze and then just sell the car ASAP.

Did you call it the Flintstone mobile?

I HAVE a Jeep Cherokee, and now you've got me worried... XD

If you're only getting worried now, this must be your first Jeep Cherokee!

Hehe... It is my first! It's also the most... interesting, vehicle I've ever owned.

I love it though, it's really fun to drive.

Playlist of attempts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk&list=PL81Jb1_MsN...

Part 3 with the 23-storey drop from a collapsing tower block is worth a watch

I had an MR-2 for seventeen years. Near the end of its life, the passenger floorboard rusted through, so that if I hit a deep puddle the rug would be pushed up by the water, and you could watch the rug slosh back and forth. Big fun.

Old Toyota trucks were basically indestructible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Yy5P6FUes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBN3IuVCxl8

That said, it's generally good advice. You just chose one of the most overbuilt, reliable vehicles of all time - not great for generalizing to other cars.

What is a high-end sound system anyways? I've always wondered, and now I ask. How do you measure it - just frequency response and power draw?

> How do you measure it - just frequency response and power draw?

Same way you measure any other high end consumer good: price

I submit that a better measure of high end audio equipment is weight.

Top end gear is HEAVY.

Not for anything portable.

The noise floor of a car is incredibly high, such that it’s probably not a high quality system, it’s just a loud system.

To be specific, top end gear has heavy torroidal inductors and transformers to keep the current flowing.

Not just that - high end speakers are heavy because of the need to use thick, stiff and dense materials to eliminate resonance.

One of the metric I know is sensitivity - how many dB per watts can a speaker produce. Logic is that at lower watts amp has less distortion. For best results buy an amp that's like 10x smaller than required, tho you will waste tons of power (which then goes into class A/B/C/D/E amps...)

You’d be amazed at what you can hose out. My house flooded in 2019 - river flood, filthy silty water up to the roofline. Everything got dunked.

I decided I’d at least try hosing everything down. PC, NAS, TV, headphones, you name it, it got hosed, and then left in the sun to dry. Mud and silt had filled most of it, and I’d little hope any of it would survive.

Turns out, bar two hard drives, everything survived. The TV had water trapped in the screen for a few months, but it dried without any residue or mark, and was perfectly usable while the thin film of water between the screen layers evaporated.

But the car was a write off. There was no going back from an engine full of silt, and 100% cooked electrics.

Just a supplement to your point of water not always being fatal to electronics - I once found a PSP lying at the bottom of a lake. It was by a school, so I guess bullying had been involved. One thorough rinse later and it turned on. Battery and optical drive were shot of course, and the screen was seriously watermarked. But still.

The PSP is not especially ferrous, so you were not Magnet Fishing when you found it?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=magnet+fishing

I’ve sent many desktop keyboards through the dishwasher. Pop the keycaps off and put them in the flatware compartment first; allow 48 hours to dry before re-assembling and plugging in after. Even the cord comes out looking good as new.

About 2005 or so a co-worker bought a new Toyota FJ Cruiser, kept it for a week and then showed up with a Honda Element. When I asked him why he said, "The FJ is just too fussy. I go hiking and fishing with the dogs and, with this Element, I can just hose it out."

Apparently not.

That's funny because FJ cruisers are very sought after vehicles nowadays.

I have spent quality time with a couple different FJ Cruisers and it is a vehicle of which I am not very fond. The seating and interior, especially the headroom, is not comfortable for me and has poor outward visibility. More than those things, though, is that its driving feels coarse and unrefined on the street. It may be great offroad but it is not a rig I'd buy for my mostly street use.

Interesting, I haven't had the opportunity to ever ride in one.

The whole floor is covered by a plastic sheet. It looks like it's safe to hose out, and unless it's damaged, it will hold pools of water. I never intentionally hosed out the whole interior of mine, but I did spray a lot of water around the front seats when I first got the car from someone who never cleaned it. The water pooled up to the point that I had to scoop it out and towel the rest. I suspect it was a bad idea, but if you saw it you'd think it's the best way to clean it.

In most cars it's okay to get the carpet pretty wet for cleaning, but you need to suck it dry with a wet/dry vac or proper carpet extractor and b)immediately dry it out as much as possible, like leaving it in hot sun with the windows and sunroof all cracked a bit and a fan or two circulating air around. Letting the car get pretty hot and then driving it around for a bunch with the A/C on will help, too. Car AC systems are very powerful.

However, some car companies put control modules in the passenger footwell (like engine control modules, sometimes ABS or airbag controllers), so it's worth looking at a parts diagram or googling around first.

because you wouldn't hose it out with everything in it, only after you removed the seats and such. personally I never would, as it doesn't take that much extra elbow grease to just use a pail and wash cloth/dry cloth.

Apparently lots of people? 2009:

https://www.elementownersclub.com/threads/forbes-article-per...

Because most work vehicles (which the element more or less is) can be hosed out if you know where the stupid little rubber grommets you have to pull are.

I clean my van with a 5gal bucket of water and a mop.

Honestly, with the terrible manufacturing quality these days, plus the fact that everything has unexpected electronics crammed everywhere, I wouldn't "hose out" any product and expect it to work again, unless the only purpose of the product was to hold water.

Jeep Wranglers have drain plugs in the floor, they're totally OK to hose out if you want to.

i have never owned or even ridden in a honda element, but the fact that you can hose it out is distinctly lodged in my memory. if it's not true i assume it wasn't claimed in an actual ad, but it was definitely a widely circulated fact at some point.

in general i'd assuming hosing out a car is an awful idea, but if for some reason i had a dirty honda element, i'd probably hose it out.

I have never owned an Element. I have never considered buying an Element. I would say I have above average awareness of the car market and am a competent DIY mechanic.

With that preface, I have recommended an Element to multiple acquaintances on account of (seemingly) being able to hose out the inside!

Whatever the root of this perceived 'capability', the dissemination of it was remarkably effective. If you asked me why I thought this, I would say that my recollection was that the official marketing campaign highlighted it as a feature.

In 2003/2004, when the Element was initially marketed to the US market, I specifically recall seeing ads that indicated I could do such. Nearly bought one for that reason. Bought a Civic SI instead.

Well, and it's hard to beat a Civic Si for fun driving, if that's your thing. (2009 here!)

Mine was an 03, hatchback model. Very fun to drive and the stick shift was on the dashboard basically.

I only wish I had spent more time driving it more interesting places, instead of to work in that wretched city.

Yeah, when I started looking at them, the sales guy at a dealership directed me to where I could find an on-ramp to bomb around. (After going very slowly to get there, past the usual speed traps.)

Since then, I've moved to an island on the west coast. Roads are where the terrain allows, and nothing is straight or on a grid. Perfect!

For fun driving, just remember the acronym M.I.A.T.A.

MIATA

Always

The

Answer

Ah, yes. I've never had one, but did get to go for a spin when my manager rented one to try out. My son's RX-7 is also a blast, or at least was when he had it running. <wink>

I own an Element. All you have to do is look in the spare tire well to see there's no way the car's designed to be hosed out.

It is a very common myth that you can hose out a Honda Element. I know people who owned them and specifically told me you could hose it off.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just pressure washed out my 30 year old Land Rover today, outside AND in. Goes like a charm!

Designed for wading usually means it keeps water out. It doesn’t always mean water proof. If the windshield is removable I would think the inside would be more water proof than a vehicle that can wade, like a Wranger (water resistant inside) vs my Grand Cherokee (multiple seals to keep water out).

Back in the early 2000s car dealers were trying to sell it on the fact you could hose it out. No rational car person would actually considered it since under the rubber-maid flooring was normal padding. If the padding wasn't there the car would be just too loud.

My wife had a 2006 Element. The salesman at the dealer told that hose it out lie. A quick Google search back then debunked it, thankfully.

I had a 2007 Element and loved it. I held on to it until it started having major problems. I never hosed mine out, but mine was from Canada and had a drain hole in the the front and rear.

I never hosed it out though even when it really could have used it. We camped in it a lot.

This was such a perfect camping/surfing/biking car, I used to rent them off Getaround. The seats actually folded up and to the side, to make a huge amount of room on the back floor. We also slept in that back a few times when it was cold out, just threw down a pad. Check out the awesome:

https://www.core77.com/posts/61976/The-Honda-Elements-Unsung...

And not hose able, but the whole back was one continuous flat rubber mat, so it was absurdly easy to clean after you put your 2 un-disassembled bikes in the back.

It was actually a sports / active oriented car, instead of couch on wheels that all the other SUVs are.

And it might not have been for everyone, but it's a shame that a different type of car like this didn't find a market.

This would have been a great design to steal for the new but boring bronco. (I had hopes :-)).

I hate this car so much. My parents owned one, I mostly rode in back:

- nausea inducing rear seating. For several reasons: no ventilation in back (can’t roll the windows down); weird elevated rear bench; overall effect is of being in a dark tunnel, horrible if you are prone to car sickness.

- you have to open the front door to open the rear door. Great for when it’s raining!

- giant box of a car that seats … 4.

- surprisingly little cargo space for what a giant box it is.

- ugly.

Yeah I get it, I think it's a better car for a couple with stuff vs. a family. Also very much not a one size fits all car. Most people never camp or go to the beach at all.

Still looks better than most of the compact crossovers nowadays which look neither here nor there. At least the element looks unique and utilitarian. And considering the short length (it's shorter than the current corolla hatch), the cargo volume is great.

I hate modern car design. Traditional non-lifted station wagons and purposeful off road short-wheelbase SUVs are getting rarer by the day. Instead we get awkward looking "sporty" SUVs with giant grilles and high beltlines.

If you want a car that's main function is seating four, your parents had about 20 other models to choose from. Everyone I know with an element has removed the rear seats or has them stowed.

I've hauled a full patio set, appliances and couches without issue.

My girlfriend and haul 2 mountain bikes + a decent size lab every weekend for adventures. AWD lets us go on wet timber roads and the gate gives you a nice place to sit and change boots/snowshoes/have a beer.

It is OK if not every car is designed for hauling kids to soccer practice.

The Bronco Sport to a light amount and the Volvo XC40 come to mind as alt-takes on modern SUVs as well.

Honda described the element as having an easy to wipe down utility floor, and waterproof seat fabric. I think somewhere along the line that merged into waterproof floor in peoples minds.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5505836ae4b015246aa27...

"somewhere along the lines" probably largely meaning via lieing salespeople and i'd guess some early clickbait articles by enterprising outlets who figured the "just hose it out" line could get some clicks/money

Funny seeing this as an Element owner, who is just dealing with the hell of having the catalytic converter stolen. With the relatively high ground clearance, these are absolute magnets for catalytic converter theft. Estimate to fix it with OEM parts ~$6k! Waiting to see if insurance totals it.

What? $6k? How much damage did the thieves do?

I know, it's unreal - the Cat itself is 2500, then 02 sensors, the frame harness, and labor are the rest

That's crazy! If you're inclined to keep it, Rockauto [0] is a cheap place to get auto parts, and often cheaper than the local stores for the same stuff. $368 for a Walker cat for an '08 Element [1].

I know that some repair jobs can be a lot because of how modern cars are designed, but if the labor is a couple grand (sounds like it is), that sounds extreme.

[0]: https://www.rockauto.com

[1]: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/honda,2008,element,2.4l+...

Thank you, I will look into this. I am worried about it happening again lol

If you live in a civilized state where there isn't mandated annual vehicle inspections, you can just go to a shop in a poorer part of time and most of the time they'll weld in a straight pipe so you can hook up the muffler again. Quick, cheap, and good enough.

There's precious metals (platinum) in the catalytic converter. That's why they get targeted by thieves & are expensive to replace. $6k seems high though. I had to replace one years ago and it was less than half that.

Might be time to look into one of those catalytic converter cage things

Yes, luckily I had read about this and just upgraded my insurance for theft the month before

This is one of the things I enjoy as an EV owner. I don't need to worry about low-lifes stealing parts from my car.

I do worry about the time when the same people figure out that a regular-ass Type 2 charging cable is up to $300 and completely untraceable if stolen. A "granny-charger" can be up to $1k for the really fancy models. And most EV's have at least one of those onboard at all times.

With a battery powered disc cutter you can have the $15k battery out inside 10 minutes.

Theoretically. In practice there will be a crispy fried battery thief under the car in the morning.

I'm not seeing a huge market in stealing batteries from EV any time soon. Most are literally built into the frame and would require taking apart the whole car.

$15k worth of battery weighs at least 453kg(1000lbs). Might as well just steal the entire car.

I don't know how many times I promoted this myth, and I never even owned one. Ironically, I really want one now because conversion vans are way too expensive, and Elements had great clearance, space, and 4WD. I hope they make a comeback.

There's a Element group on Facebook where people post ones for sale.

The admins insist on pics from every angle and ton of details so there's nothing sketchy. Of course high miles are the norm because the last model year was 10 years ago.

I had one and remember hearing the rumor but seeing how run off from snow would pool I never believed it. Still one of the best and most utilitarian cars I ever owned. Beach day, snow day, moving it did it all. Especially with the fold up seats!

Loved ours until it got in a wreck, still consider picking a used one up. My only complaint ever was the 4-cyl being underpowered.

Folded the seats up to the sides, moved a full-sized clothes washer and dryer upright in the back, a lot roomier than it looks. (Edit: I luckily was not dumb enough to hose it out.)

The engine was perfectly adequate with a 5-speed and front-wheel drive, but I can see how a 2000s automatic and the extra weight of AWD could make it sluggish.

If you want a hoseable vehicle, buy an FJ Cruiser. I take my dogs to the car wash (it has heated water), and hose them off without taking them out of the back.

There's a fun fact about the FJ cruiser and I know a lot of folks on here will enjoy pointing it out to others just as I do:

Three windshield wipers!!

No discussion about the FJ Cruiser is complete without mentioning how it's a perfect example of a Simulacra:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA23qLvl79k

Is it possible that your FJ Cruiser could get rusted out in exactly the same way as the Honda Element from doing this?

The FJ has drainage holes on the bottom so it all clears out.

Yes - jeep wranglers are hosable and they will rust in this same way - if you don't completely remove the carpets and really let everything dry out you will get rust.

Random FYI, but the article shows repairs using POR15 paint. It's pretty nasty to work with, and I highly recommend MasterSeries paint as an alternative: http://masterseriesct.com

No affiliation, just learned the hard way with my 1960s VW Beetle.

Reminded me where I have seen POR-15 before. Seems to be good stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag46YUovPUc

I use a single component moisture cure coating made for the maritime applications and it is awesome.

Nasty how? I had no trouble using it the same way on my Z31.

It's really smelly, thick, shiney, and can peel off. The Masterseries is more like normal paint, looks better, and can be painted over as well. I found it a lot easier to work with.

Back in the day when I bought my Element, upon delivery the dealer told me to never wash it out with a hose. I asked why they gave that advice, and the dealer said there was an ad (I think print?) by Honda that showed a dude hosing out an Element and they had all these cases of people bricking their cars as a result.

I loved that car, it got totaled when a van badly rear ended it, and I ended up getting $22k back on a 4 year old car that cost $23k new.

I definitely remember a TV ad where someone hoses out their car after going to the beach. Unfortunately I don't remember the make/model and Google isn't turning anything up. I wonder if people incorrectly associated that with the Element.

Why is this car beloved? It's so terribly ugly, and it doesn't have any redeeming features you'd expect from a 4x4 (space, cargo room, clearance)

It has enormous cargo space for its size. It has more interior space than an FJ Cruiser, despite being 80% of the size. The stock rear seats of an Element fold flat across the windows: https://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/585272_81_61976_raLZL...

Also, there was factory-optioned camper model called the Honda Element ECamper.

Like the FJ, the Element has suicide doors allowing you to load things like wheelchairs and surfboards.

I think a big reason it has the false misconception of being washable is that there is no carpeting (except on the SC) models. It was also rated as the #1 dog-owner vehicle, which means it tends to get muddy. Honda even had a dog-utility ramp for it: https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~pet~ramp~kit~08l...

I bought one new in 2003 and this is spot on. I sold it in 2018 and still miss it (but wanted to tow more than 1500 lbs).

The styling is definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but if it's ugly at least it's cute ugly rather than the "I'm going to murder anyone who gets in my way"-ugly that seems to be trendy right now.

One of the things I miss the most was the lack of a giant center console/tunnel between the front seats, and the dash-mounted shifter. You could easily drive with e.g. a backpack/messenger bag/etc. between the seats, and the whole interior felt much less cramped (a huge contrast to my current Escape/Kuga). The rear seats had a great view over the heads of the front-seat passengers and tons of leg room and headroom.

Also the steep windshield and restrained amount of visual clutter on top of the dash was pretty great, especially in contrast to what's available nowadays, where you usually have a bunch of pointless shapes and textures constantly superimposed on your view of the world thanks to the reflection in the windshield.

Appreciate this response, thanks!

Agreed with everything you said. It's a pity everything today has centre consoles splitting the car in 2. I like the idea of a 3 seat bench in the front but i think practicality is getting lost in the name of safety regs and excessive over styling, brand distinction and design detailing. The good news is electric cars can do away with tunnels and petrol tanks.

I had a new one in 2005 and I LOVED that thing. I sold it and bought a hybrid Camry in 2009 because of gas prices and while the Camry has been great I miss the Element all the time. It was such a practical vehicle, and it had actual personality. It was so easy to clean, the soft plastic panels on the edges meant parking dents were really rare, it was surprisingly small and easy to park (especially parallel park, it was short and narrow), being able to easily take the seats out meant you had a huge amount of room in the back, no center console cluttering up the space between the driver and passenger, just super nice all around.

They’re cheap, extremely reliable, relatively fuel efficient, and very practical for their size.

It also wasn’t a 4x4. It did have an AWD option, like any Suburu, but it’s not meant for off-roading.

There was a 4wd option, I had one.

Absurd utility. Literally a Transformer of a car: The rear seats could be folded up, flattened & lined up with the fully reclining front seats into a (uneven) bed, or removed entirely. Suicide rear doors, no fixed B pillar & a low floor made loading and unloading a breeze. Same with the tailgate. Hell, they even positioned the sun roof so you could stand in the rear compartment to change clothes.

I had an original sunset orange 2003 model and miss it often.

Honda is great at delivering cars that do exactly what people actually need or want.

The Element had huge interior space and was thoughtfully designed to be ultra-utilitarian. Most consumers don't actually need a gigantic 4x4 with huge ground clearance to drive to their camp site once a year, so they didn't include those things.

Honestly, the number of people who need high clearance 4x4 off-road vehicles ever is extremely small. Most people don't realize that something like the very capable Subaru Outback can actually conquer most casual offroad trails these days.

The Honda Ridgeline is another great example. It was the perfect truck for the way most people actually use a truck: mostly commuting, occasional light hauling and towing. It gets great gas mileage, has enough towing capacity to pull a side-by-side or even a car on a light trailer, and it's very thoughtfully designed. But it doesn't have the big truck look, so most people skip it. Early base models were even FWD, which is perfectly fine and reasonable for the average truck owner in warm climates, but consumers balked because nobody had ever seen a FWD truck before. (They dropped the FWD model eventually).

As someone who lives a lifted truck lifestyle and gets there in an subie hatchback I concur

> Most consumers don't actually need a gigantic 4x4 with huge ground clearance ... the very capable Subaru Outback can actually conquer most casual offroad trails these days.

This is funny, because after I read "unnecessary ground clearance" the outback is exactly the car that came to mind! Most of the cars in that class (RAV4, Rogue, etc.) have lower clearance.

(I totaled a sedan on a logging road due to insufficient clearance and replaced that car with a Forester, which has the same clearance as the Outback. I generally concur that the Forester/Outback/Crosstrek strike a good balance for most off-roading needs, but the extra clearance is unnecessary for probably 99% of purchasers. Particularly the Outback which seems to be a super popular family car.)

Because it's like 90% of the utility of an Astro van but it's not technically a van and it's from a manufacturer that certain demographics hold in high regard. It's a van for the people who are too proud to own a van.

Edit: I sound like MCM and I don't like it.

This is likely it; 50% or more of SUVs are designed for people who refuse to be caught dead or alive in a minivan.

Which is ridiculous--if people would actually test drive a minivan or use it for a few weeks they'd end up loving them. The side doors, back hatch and fold flat seats mean a mini van is a heck of a setup. My wife makes fun of me but if we fly into someplace and rent a car I'll almost always get a minivan.

The minivan is almost the perfect vehicle by many measures - and for those who have too much shame, they can drive a Kia Carnival which has lines that make it look like an SUV.

Element was available from 2003-2011--are you talking about "certain demographics" who wanted the reliable automobiles that Honda made during that time? So weird.

That is in addition to offering AWD, stick shift, stow-able rear seating, better MPG, vinyl interior instead of carpet, removable moon-roof, none of which the Astro had.

It has a ton of space, you could remove the rear seats or fold them against the side. Mine had fantastic reliability and the 4 wheel drive worked very well in the snow.

To add to what's already been said, it also came in manual.

Non-native english speaker here. Can someone please explain what does 'hose a car' mean? (Quick ddg search didn't quite clear it up.)

It means washing the car using a garden hose, in other words it means cleaning the car using a large quantity of water

Using a garden hose to clean the inside of your car with a lot of water

To clean it with a water hose

https://api.calcarcover.com/data/default/images/catalog/1000...

Wow, I've had one since 2007. I've even quoted that exact line. And yet I've never actually done it and am glad I haven't.

Test-drove one when they came out, and I was told you could hose them out. We said it would be an ideal vehicle to carry bicycles, and the sales guy said "I can do you one better. You can not only carry bicycles, but you can hose out the inside when you get home!"

Early 70's and before pickup trucks could be hosed out, but when you were finished you needed to "broom" out the excess water. These were the trucks which had regular floor mats, just leave the two doors open for a little while to air out the cab.

They probably didn't have any floor soundproofing either, or even carpet, which simplifies things significantly. I was amazed at how effectively the mass-loaded vinyl soundproofing and carpet deadens road noise when I drove my car with bare metal floors recently. I would never buy a car without it.

(The sunroof drains got disconnected and the floor was completely flooded. With the sound deadening mat under the carpet there's no way it would have dried out on its own, and it took me a few days to get it all dried out, so I drove it in the meantime with no carpet.)

that's sad...it would be the perfect vehicle from a form factor standpoint to do this. Would that they could just spend the extra production bux to put extra rustproofing and drain holes in it for this...

That's not that simple, actually. Drain holes by themselves are going to allow moisture in to the car as well, and being holes the edges will need to be protected, usually drain holes will have some rubber insert for that. But then they are no longer flush, so some water will pool. I've welded plenty of car bottoms where moisture had done a very thorough job of rusting things out, drain holes are typically a fantastic way to get a problem, rarely a way to solve a problem.

Some convertibles have this done the right way, but there the whole car is designed from the ground up for this, and that includes the upholstery, the electronics placement, the way the cables are routed and so on. If that isn't the case your best bet is to keep moisture and fluids on the other side of the bodywork.

aren't there drain/weep holes in most/all door assemblies with roll down windows? seems like it could be a solved problem for auto makers

Yes, but doors have a very nicely defined lower point without a whole lot of variation in the profile of the bottom bit. Even so, they rust out frequently, as the sibling comment to yours mentions, in part because they tend to be too small and get clogged, in part because the moisture running down the inside of the door can still sit on the level parts for a surprisingly long time, and soak into the sound proofing and between the sound proofing and the various metal door panels. Depending on how porous the paint is and how good the adhesive is it could get problematic (there was a time when car manufacturers switched to water based paints and cars from that early period after the switch tend to rust like mad because the paint was more porous).

Finally, keep the door rubbers at the top maintained well, the best way to deal with water is not to get it in there in the first place (but moisture from condensation is impossible to avoid).

very good info, more caveats than i thought at a glance

Everything on a Boeing airliner has drain holes in it, usually at least 3/8" in diameter. Boeing really does not want accumulations of water in its airplanes, as it causes corrosion and can form ice and it's heavy.

The drain holes in car doors are usually too small - they'll get stopped up with bits of grit and leaves. I drill them out larger for Seattle weather.

Aircraft are not typically made of steel. Do make sure that you coat the edges of your drain holes after you drill them out with some sealant (epoxy coating for instance) so that you don't give rust a fantastic place to start and make sure you get all of the shavings from the inside of the door.

Aluminum corrodes, too.

https://www.wileymetal.com/aluminum-corrosion-why-it-happens...

I didn't worry about the edges, as it would take a very long time for the corrosion to progress that way on sheet metal. Didn't worry about the shavings, either, just more of the usual grit at the bottom of the door.

Though if I have a dab of paint or grease handy I'd use it.

> Aluminum corrodes, too.

As the former owner of a metal workshop I think I'm aware of that little detail :) Especially fun when welding it without fancy processes. The speed with which that top layer oxidizes is uncanny, you can actually see it happening under a microscope.

I've seen tiny little holes in sheetmetal cause enormous trouble in no time because it causes the paint to blister, lifts it up and then exposes a much larger area, this is an exponential process, with ever new bit exposed an even larger surface becomes active in the process because the edge length keeps increasing.

MB had an interesting mishap when they switched paint processes, it caused absolutely miniscule holes in the paint, the result was entire doors rotted out in under 3 years, resulting in massive recalls. Once rust has a hold on something if unchecked it will progress rapidly.

Basically you're right, but I didn't have any trouble over it. The holes let the water out and allowed the metal to dry. This was drastically less of a problem than having the water sit in there. Even worse was the mud that accumulates in the bottom of the door would stay damp, pressing the moisture against the metal.

Holes not only let the water drip out, but help to dry out the metal.

I notice dramatic differences in rust on metal where it can dry out vs where it can't.

I agree. Wranglers have drain holes and it seems to me there would be a market for a less offroad capable, more practical car with similar water resistance.

I didn't even know hosing out cars was a thing. I've never seen anyone here in Germany do that.

Related, don't buy a car with a salvage title that had been in a flood. Car makers really really don't expect a car to be full of water, ever.

I remember being told that hosing out an Element would ruin the electrics, that they aren't sealed.

Rust too eh.

It would take a while for rust to develop. My car (2003 VW Jetta) had the floor completely saturated for well over a year, but when I finally found the leak (sunroof drains) and removed the carpet to dry it out, there was very minimal rust.

I know it's HN, but please don't bring Rust into this. Every... single.. thread...

It looks like this is a Honda Element fan site. But I wonder if floor panel rusting is a design flaw, how come the lawyers haven't all jump on the class action suit bandwagon...

Floor panels rust if they end up in constant contact with dampness, it's not a design flaw so much as the expected result. You should never let the floor inside the car stay damp/wet.

In places where salt is heavily used on roads new floor pans are something you'll see regularly completely rusted out.

Unless Honda advertised or recommended hosing it out, what would lawyers go after? As far as I know Honda themselves didn't advertise this, it was some odd public myth that spread rapidly

It's steel, it will rust. No one would want to spend the huge increase in cost for a fully stainless steel car. DeLorean tried!

Hah it’s funny that you say that because Tesla is about to release their stainless bodied Cybertruck. I was just watching a video by Sandy Munro about how this is not exactly a terrible idea: https://youtu.be/YQSQYQ44Qco

I was curious so I looked up what the floor of an Element looks like: https://i.imgur.com/Q3zlB6M.jpg

Looks like it's meant to catch all the spills from the rear passenger section but applying any water to the front is no bueno.

Note to self: don't buy a used Element.

Wow really, who would have thought? I guess I should use the microwave in the bathtub either?

My thought exactly, but the amount of people hosing (or even pressure washing!) the insides of their cars are probably much higher than one might guess ...

If you hose it out and it rusts, the problem of no drain holes is fixed, right?

I would love if I could hose out my car or , house, but I would be pretty skeptical if someone told me I could.

It's not hard to design a kitchen or mud room to be hosable; commercial ones are. Main thing is tiling and draining.

I’m remodeling my main floor.

The mud room and kitchen will be tiled enough to mop liberally.

The key in my opinion is a well designed and placed floor drain.

They now make ones that keep wet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=864WzLG1w2Q for example.

I like the idea but it seems like a sorta random use case for a home.

There’s a reason lots of places require leak pans for washing machines, dishwashers, water heaters, and so on. It will eventually happen so it’s often best to prepare for it, especially if on a wood floor. Water damage is very bas for a structure.

I think a water alarm and auto shut off for things like that are better.

If you're building new I guess it is nice to have a drain, but I'm not sure it is worthwhile / the likelihood / utility is THAT high.

Despite never having owned one, all these years I also thought the element floor was hose-able. I wonder why I thought that and how I learned and kept this, apparently untrue, tidbit around with me all these years

A friend told me this was her dream car maybe 7 or 8 years ago for this reason ("hose it out"). I do know she eventually got one. My response at the time was, "who cares, still ugly."

The “you can hose it out” meme took hold in my brain too for whatever reason. It’s the only thing I could have told you about it after “it’s boxy and probably has a Honda I-4 under the hood.”

What lunatic would think you could do that in the first place

the future had personal jetpacks... and power washable interiors.

Just turn it upside down after hosing it.

stick it in a bag of rice

I'm curious how this is currently the top story on HN. A now-discontinued and otherwise entirely unremarkable family vehicle is not able to be inundated with water without serious consequences, much like the overwhelming majority of passenger vehicles made before or since.

Who is the audience for this?

And yet we've clicked on it!

It’s mostly the Mandela-esque effect of everyone seeming to remember it being a supposedly washable interior.

Plus the Element sort of has an outsized place in American popular car culture, not unlike the Pontiac Aztek. That’s my best guess anyway. Hard to explain but it makes sense to me seeing it here.

Yeah you nailed it. Until just now I thought you could hose these things out. I thought that was the entire point of the plastic interior: hoseability.

Like public bathrooms with central drain and continuous tile from the floor and up the wall.

I've never owned an Element—I hope that if I did, I'd figure out the truth of this myth—but it's definitely a very common one.

> entirely unremarkable family vehicle

That’s blasphemy right there.

It’s the best of a group Of vehicles designed by Boomers for millennials that ended up only being bought by Boomers, since discontinued for no good reason.

Honda’s major sin here was not updating it with modern electronics or a more efficient engine.

It is smaller than the current CR-V.

Such a shame.

They did in fact update the engine (at least once). I tried finding one here in Europe but they are pretty much impossible to come by unless you want to import one from the USA which has a ton of problems for a car that is not officially carried here.

I put 250k miles on an '08 before, very reluctantly, selling it to a kid for his first vehicle.

The '08 had been "updated".

But they never offered it with factory installed nav, despite having a very "ahead of its times" sound system. It also had terrible gas mileage.

Sure, it was less aerodynamic than a Mac truck, but Honda could have revisited it.

Much like my dearly departed Vanagon, there's nothing new like it on the market.

I have a VW Transporter that started life as a taxi cab. 9 seater, rubberized floor. I put a longer 5th gear in it and removed the LNG system (ridiculous taxes otherwise), it's pretty economic and can haul a ton of stuff. The whole neighborhood here uses it :)

It being an ex taxi bi-fuel I bought it super cheap with low mileage.

I agree, the Element was a great vehicle, I think it was a little overpriced, but it is a Honda. I would love an updated version now that I can afford one.

> vehicles designed by Boomers for millennials

As I recall, they were designed by Boomers for younger versions of themselves, and priced for Boomers wanting to feel young again. That, of course, necessitated ads theoretically aimed at millennials

I'd buy an updated Element in a minute. Meanwhile I'm holding on to the one I have. And I'd never hose it down.

I’ve always assumed the Element was a victim of tightening CAFE standards. The design was incompatible with the computer-optimized slipstream profile manufacturers use to tack on a few fractional MPG, and its market positioning was incompatible with the price level required for inefficient vehicles to offset the discount on cheap econo-lozenges.

You could probably revive it as an BEV, although with shitty range due to its aerodynamics.

I have never owned, or even considered buying a Honda Element. But I have heard the rumor that they can be hosed out, and I know they have a bit of a cult following, so that was enough to arouse my curiosity. I clicked the link, had some previously held misconception dispelled, and saw some images of a rusted out element. All in all I was not disappointed.

> A now-discontinued and otherwise entirely unremarkable family vehicle

The Honda Element was a very special car. I never understood it until I spent time with a friend who has owned one for years. They have a cult following for good reason. You can fit full size furniture in the cargo bay, while still parking in a compact spot. With people piled in the back, you can easily carry 6 passengers at double the MPG of a full size SUV or van. The handling is tight and smooth; nothing like an SUV or truck. The clearance is equivalent to a Wrangler. And Honda reliability means these things are still on the road in perfect condition at 300k+ miles. I could go on and on, but suffice to say the Element was not "just" an unremarkable family vehicle. It absolutely nailed a utilitarian niche that no other vehicle has come close to before or since.

I currently have an '06 and would love to upgrade to an '07 or later.

Except the cult following (of which I am a member) and current used car prices means I'll be driving it for the foreseeable future.

It is 20 inches shorter than a minivan. But, it's also basically a minivan with the rear cut off.

The Element is actually kind of interesting because you would think it and the similarly boxy Scion xB would have been popular cars for young folks. They're utilitarian and oozed hip marketing directly at active younger kids--load it up with mountain bikes, camping gear, etc. and go have fun.

But in reality these cars were incredibly popular with senior citizens and older folks. It turns out they had amazing visibility with the boxy upright design and seniors felt safer driving them, plus they were spacious inside and easy to enter and exit. The marketing was kind of misplaced and younger folks didn't care for them at all.

Is this a cautionary note for Hans Reiser ?

“Don’t attempt to wash your wife’s blood out of a Honda Element… it will rust !!”

That's not even really severe rust - most of it is just surface, easy to treat it with naval jelly/rust neutralizer.

The second photo shows two large holes in the driver footwell and one in the passenger side. The last 4 photos show where it was cut out and patched. It's not difficult to patch with some sheet metal and a welder, but it's labor intensive.

It can get difficult in a hurry if the rusted out spots are near where wiring is sandwiched between the various metal parts. I've done my share of repairs like these and if you only end up doing what you think you'll be doing when you start the job then consider yourself lucky.

I've done one myself. In my experience, the worst part is removing sound deadening and factory undercoat.

Yes that can be quite tricky. For sound deadening: the method I use: first try a couple of different ways on a small test patch, then do the whole thing. Methods to try: chisel, applying a bit of heat, cold spray and then hitting it with a hammer (surprisingly effective!), large diameter rotating steel brush (not very good for detail work due to the large diameter but it eats through that stuff in a hurry), pushing 'up' from below to deform the floorpan a bit to see if the stuff delaminates (sometimes you get lucky). Pick the one that works best for the initial removal, then do the remainder with the next slower method until it's done. Tedious.

Factory undercoat: rotating steel brushes are the only effective way afaik and it takes forever unless you have access to a large size sand blaster.

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