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Comment by jqpabc123 | Hacker News Reader

Without regulation, the marketplace --- any marketplace --- becomes a platform for scams and extortion.

Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible.

That's not true at all. In theory, a perfect market will self-regulate. No one buys or sells from scammers and they are naturally outcompeted from the marketplace. However, in real world, markets aren't perfect and that's why regulation is needed, but it's up to debate. It can be argued that the market would always find a way to weed out scammers even without regulation. Over-regulation is also sub-optimal.

Could you elaborate by what you mean by regulation? Regulations come in many forms.

Show me a regulated marketplace and I'll show you regulations put in place by big players to weed out the competition.

Ok, lets take the obvious example ---- traditional banking. Lots of small players doing quite well in a highly regulated market.

>Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible.

I buy all of my vegetables from the roadside stands that are completely unregulated, and often set up in proximity to other stands with other offerings. I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

Come on, there’s still plenty of regulation involved. There are regulations controlling the quality of the water that’s irrigating the fields, and they’re not using raw human waste to fertilize the plants.

> and they’re not using raw human waste to fertilize the plants.

Nope... industrial waste.

‘Forever chemicals’ upended a Maine farm — and point to larger problem -- https://wapo.st/3OeHPEf

The water used on fields in my area is non-potable. As far as human waste goes, I don't think it's regulations preventing that, but rather efficiency. Other animal waste is used as fertilizer, because it works better.

That is incorrect. You'll find the relevant regulations here: https://www.epa.gov/biosolids/biosolids-laws-and-regulations

Your link does not support your claim. Crops are watered with non-potable water and it's not regulated. Any farmer can water their crops and sell them on the side of the road without any interference from the EPA.

The claim I’m making isn’t that you can’t use non-potable water. It’s that the water quality is regulated (see https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...) and you can’t fertilize crops with raw human sewage (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...), both of which are true (with certain exceptions).

I find it is useful to try to disprove your own beliefs before confidently claiming something to be true. The resources are out there and not terribly difficult to locate if you put a modicum of effort into it.

Many farmers in my state water from rivers on their land that aren't even large enough to get EPA attention let alone direct regulation. I think you're under the impression everyone with a vegetable stand is Cargill or something.

Well, then this is also true of crypto - there are regulations about how the electricity used for PoW is generated, transmitted, distributed, regulations about how these transactions should be reported for tax purposes, etc.

But that's not what he's talking about.

You also can't injure your customers with your produce.

You can't put your produce stand in the middle of a public roadway.

You can't lie about what kind of produce you're selling, and you can't lie about its grading.

You can't doctor the scales.

You can't charge a higher sales tax than is levied by the locality and pocket the difference.

I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

Are you sure? A lot of these are "the hippies ripping off the yuppies".

In my area, they often sell the same stuff as the grocery stores --- just priced differently. A little basket of 4 tomatoes (usually about 2 lbs) is $5. The grocery store price is $1.49/lb (or less if you shop at Lidl or Aldi).

The price isn't regulated but there are lots of other regulations involved along with legal liability if they poison customers.

Really depends on where you live. In South Florida, the roadside and farm-affiliated vendors really do sell higher quality product for less money. I have picked up better quality mangoes off the side of the road than I can buy at a supermarket. But I grew up in Homestead, near the Redland agricultural area.

In the Tampa area farmers markets, you can buy all of the produce that farmers took to Lakeland to sell to Publix but was rejected.

And what about the unregulated supply chain for those goods? Do you know they’re actually higher quality? How do you know they’re not just buying the cheapest thing from Mexico or the passed over produce from a local farmer and hawking it to you at premium prices?

I’ve been researching the work that Devin Finzer has done around ERC-721 and I believe the scenario you described above is the perfect use case for all this blockchain tech that is currently being developed. I recently saw that Warner Brothers is going to release 6 million NFT backed physical items this year. Does anybody have ideas on how they might go about minting 6 million records? And how would they go about keeping track of said 6 million records?

Oh, those are regulated, for sure.

Try to steal from them and the cops will come after you, plus the risk to your physical integrity.

Darknet markets? Amazing quality, safety and customer support with literally 0 regulations.

Sorry but thats a failed argument

There are scams on DNMs. But there are also high quality vendors. And there are also scams that are part of regulated markets. So yeah still failed argument.

Sure but the feedback system works well enough to weed them out quite fast. When people get burned they learn, big papa gov regulations prevents learning.

Darknet markets are the best example of self regulating markets. Its truly amazing and it doesn't get enough credit

Of course most are run or acquired by intelligence agencies eventually....

Pure bovine excrement. Scammers can change their identity at will on the darknet.

Trustworthy vendors rely on their reputation. They usually value it a lot.

So what if they do? They have to start again from 0 (usually).Its also very easy to avoid them...

Scammers only care about ripping you off. And the darknet is the ideal environment for them.

How come darknet markets work extremely well then?

Some people value steady profits much more than a one time scam.

How come darknet markets work extremely well then?

How do you know they do --- have you done a survey?

Some people value steady profits much more than a one time scam.

Why do some people become criminals instead of getting a nice steady job? Maybe because it is more profitable and requires minimal effort. And lots of scams aren't "one time".

Because millions of people use them and the feedback is mostly positive?

Because where there is demand there is supply.

Pot sellers were criminals once now they are businessman

You think buying from a well known anonymous user with months/years of reviews will result in a "scam"?

Safety? Customer support? Really?

What do you do if you're scammed on the darknet? Let me guess --- nothing because you can't identify who you're dealing with or where they are located.

Yes? The quality of products is millions of times higher than in the streets.

Everything gets continually tested by a lot of people. Entire forums dedicated to weed out bad sellers and identity good products ..

Yeah, sellers are usually super responsive and will normally fix any issue if you are polite and abide by the rules.

Ummm what exactly do you do if you are scammed in real life? Go to the police and file a complaint that will never go anywhere? Lol

Or you mean if in the real world you get scammed by a company? Can YOU really start a lawsuit? What amount of money are we talking about? 10k,100k, 1m?

What amount of money are we talking about? 10k,100k, 1m?

Zero. Lot of lawyers searching for clients with a legitimate legal case. They get a portion of what they win.

I meant how much money you got scammed for.

Lets say you bought a phone from Craigslist and its a fake one, what do you do?

You sent a guy a wire for a collectors item and he sends you a box of rocks? What do you do?

There's so many ways that you can get scammed in the real world without recourse.

What's happening here is that you have a preconceived notion of "darknets markets bad"

You sent a guy a wire for a collectors item and he sends you a box of rocks?

I have bought and sold on Craigslist. This is not how it works --- unless you're stupid.

What's happening here is that you have a preconceived notion of "darknets markets bad"

Yes. People choose to operate on the darknet instead of craigslist for a reason --- usually because they are doing something illegal. And scamming people is one of these illegal things.

I know thats not how Craiglist works. Do you even know how darknet markets work or what they are?

Escrows, vendor reputation, feedback, etc?

Something illegal depending on the jurisdiction

Legal =/= ethical

Show me a regulated market that is free of front-running. It doesn't exist.

Lesser evil?

are you saying that front running is better than regulation?

They are saying the occurrence of front running in a regulated market is a lesser evil compared to the absolute shitshow of scams and con games that play out in an unregulated market.

There are varying degrees of front running and a well regulated market will generally have much less of it.

It's kind of like saying "show me a market without corruption". Obviously all markets have some amount of shady behavior, but it hardly means every market is equally corrupt.

Show me a human endeavor of any kind free of corruption.

So, because we cannot eliminate every issue with regulation, we shouldn't have any regulation?

Surely the answer is in "just the right amount" of regulation. Getting to this sweet spot is a process, but one human societies have been approaching for some time. We would be foolish to throw out all that effort because it couldn't be perfect.

What does that even mean in this case? There is no regulation against front-running. Take the stock market for example. Everyone knows that high frequency traders moved all of their infrastructure to be as close as possible to Wall Street to get sub-second advantages on trades. No one batted an eye. Of course, could you stop it if you tried? Information is asymmetrically distributed someone will always find and exploit an advantage somewhere and it's impossible to be fair.

Everyone knows that Wall Street got bailed out in 2008 by the very same regulators you say are for our own good. Everyone knows Wall Street and Black Rock got the biggest squeeze from the Covid stimulus. In return we got $1400, 10% inflation, and a drop in real income. And front-running still happens. Hell the whole business model for Robinhood, the app, which charges zero trading fees, is to package up their retail users trades and sell the orders to high frequency traders who will squeeze out profits from front running or sandwiching the orders.

Also, everyone knows that Congress does insider trading and the speaker of the House is the worst offender. Everyone knows that the revolving door that moves between regulators and the financial sector is incestuous.

The regulations you praise are written by the lobbyists and companies who benefit the most. And I'm not in that club. Maybe you are and that's why you defend it. But it ain't me.

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