TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists).
Edit: look at the numbers, it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...
Maybe the same should be extended to the Catalans.
Luckily I'm too young to remember, but I do know older people talking about ETA with fear and me thinking they were overblowing it, until I stumbled upon the wikipedia article with all they did and holy cow when I looked at the list of the 2000s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80...
I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts.
I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
Yeah, sure.
"In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father".
"His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal).
"They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million".
He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health.
Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.
At least four of the last presidents of Cataluña (all either from the Pujol's party or their legacy) had been involved in a rich catalog of scams and frauds, including one fugitive in search and capture and two inhabilitated by repeatedly disobeying the laws that they should represent or spending public money in very questionable ways.
There is material here for several godfather trilogies plus a police academy series. Is simply grotesque.
While there has been corruption in all sides, this statement needs clarification. The search and capture issued to interpol was obeyed by Germany. Upon examination of Spain‘s reasons the court in Germany decided it was not enough proof to send Puigdemont back to Spain. If anything, this seems to contradict what one would think of when reading the above sentence without context.
The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.
You can't just start voting to secede from the country you belong to. Voting independence for the sake of it doesn't make any sense.
An independent town may want to separate but wouldn't have the resources.
What if that town votes for independence and then votes to be part of, lets say, China? They would have enough resources then. But anyway, nobody is using the resource argument here in the Catalonian independence issue.
You may not like it but it does make sense - countries have come into existence as a direct result of "terrorism" leading to civil war. Given the demographic breakdown of HN, it is very likely you live in one of those right now. Also remember that Spain struggled with violent separatist movement which was still active well into this century, so it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
Terrorism in Catalonia was a thing years ago but it stopped. They never went as far as the ETA terrorist group from the Basque Country. And even then, independence was not an option. If you start conceding things under the thread of terrorism, where do you draw the line?
The Spanish constitution is clear. You can't claim/vote for independence. As in any other modern country we are subject to the rule of law so if they want independence, they should start by trying to change the constitution.
I have a better idea, why not threat with stop breathing until their requirements are accepted?
Now seriously. This is a false dichotomy. Threatening an entire nation with terrorism until you have your candy and are allowed to stole the properties of the majority of your neighbors is neither acceptable, funny, or serious. Not when all that you have to sustain your utopia is a big mouth and guerrilla tricks seen in internet.
If suggesting naive adolescents to engage in terrorism is the level of the arguments, we need more adults entering the room. Blackmailing an entire country will often backfire.
For the record I am neither for nor against Catalan independence, it is none of my business and not my place to judge.
HN lately doesn't fail to disappoint. I don't know what else to do other than quote what you are replying to. Turn your auto pilot off.
> I am neither for nor against Catalan independence
The reasoning China and Russia give for their actions is facile. You're rather making my point.
"Catalonia should be independent! And Barcelona should be an independent city-state within it! Why not!"
"I am neither for nor against independence but this is an overly simplistic attitude, you clearly haven't thought about what you're saying seriously at all"
"You're just like China!"Oh and you can bet Puidgemont was seeking russian support for his independence plans https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-...
(Which doesn't mean many people don't have a legitimate wish of independence or more autonomy but of course the discussion has many nuances)
Meanwhile, back in the real world, states in the actual Balkans are actively joining the European Union and gaining freedom of movement throughout the region. Even Balkanization is not what it used to be.
In the real world there are world powers that benefit from a unified Europe with strong central authority and those that don't. Brexit serves the interests of the later. Scottish independence would further those interests still.
Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO.
This is not a statement on the morality of such movements or whether they might be a good idea in the narrow sense for Scots, Catalans, the people of Flanders and so forth. Rather it is a look at the larger map and unintended consequences.
Finally, as to what is actually happening in the Balkans - the state of affairs between Kosovo and Albania (ironically they might form a union) and Bosnia is.. not fantastic to say the least.
Sadly memories are short and attitudes are cavalier.
> Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO.
Why? Does any of these actually want to leave NATO?
Or is this just a generic conservative position "change causes political instability, political instability bad therefore change bad"? ?
I am not a conservative. Your attitude itself is an example of the division and political instability.
The SNP (love them or hate them, I don't care): "an independent Scotland would prioritise the speediest possible safe removal of nuclear weapons."
Say this populist party has its William Wallace moment, now what is left of the UK will have to disentangle itself militarily. It will certainly be a politically heated moment in time, I'm sure you're aware of Russian interference in these things if nothing else as agents of chaos - Voilà.
It is certainly easier to agitate an independent small country to force the Brits to move their nuclear subs.
You can be all for Scottish independence conceptually, morally, whatever - and still be concerned about the whole board.
This is disingenuous without giving the context of that quote. The UK's nuclear submarines are stored in Scotland, near Edinburgh (the Forth estuary). The Scottish people don't want those nukes there, both because of the inherent danger these missiles pose, and because it paints a target on their head.
The SNP's position is that if the English want to keep their nukes, they should keep them in England. That's what "removal" refers to here, it is not about forcing the English to disarm.
Response: "But the balkan countries want to join the EU, which is anti-Brexitesque which is the thing that I oppose and wish to grind my axe about. Checkmate!"
Me: "What he is talking about is that there are world powers that benefit from a unified Europe with strong central authority and those that don't."
Response: "You're a conservative!"
Me: "I am not a conservative. This is about divide and conquer. It is easier to take on multiple smaller adversaries that are preoccupied with in-fighting.
For example, I am neither pro nor against Scottish independence, but as part of that process the main political party involved has stated it will attempt to remove nuclear subs from its newly controlled territory - which will harm the British defence posture - for populist reasons and to the sole long term benefit of their adversaries"
Response: "This is disingenuous! It isn't about forcing the English to disarm, just to move!"
Me: "I said move.."
Response: "OK, fine you said move. But! Your argument loses quite a lot of value, since I personally don't understand the negative impact of moving subs"
I give up comrade.
I am not calling you a conservative -- few people can be defined with a single word -- but you do have a conservative position here: you just keep repeating an argument that boils down to "change is bad because of change". You even fail to see that you are not really elaborating on the reason, which only adds to the feeling of bias.
It's not like these borders are written in stone. It's not like balkanization in Europe will actually lead to a less powerful european govern structure -- it may actually lead to a more powerful EU; without large-population states monopolizing it, smaller states have one less reason to mistrust EU-centralized government. I even mentioned in another comment this was actually the real goal of the early pan-european people, and not what we have now.
But it's all hard to predict. What I'm not going to do is to say that all of this is bad "because it is change".
And these arguments about the omni-present "enemy state actors" contributing to almost practically every cause (except, apparently, the cause of preserving the status quo. a status quo which is not really that great and which almost certainly ends very bad for us. why would foreign actors want to meddle with that?) quickly get tiresome.
Your disdain for conservatives is palpable, and that is your business. The response some people have, especially nowadays, to even a whiff of conservatism is to reject everything out of hand often before reading or comprehending anything actually said.
It is tedious. Especially with the in vogue tactics of rewriting what somebody says into the usual talking points (both liberals and conservatives do this ad nauseam).
> you just keep repeating an argument that boils down to "change is bad because of change"
For the last time, that is _not_ the argument presented.
Try to read again carefully, without assuming I am a conservative, and better yet, without viewing everything through the prism of politics.
> than generically saying "it will harm the British defense posture". Why?
This should be your one and only concern. I hardly care where it fits in some provincial spat between liberals and conservatives.
Change is not bad, change is a fixture of life. Change for the sake of sticking it to your local political opponents is foolish short term thinking. Whether those subs are optimally placed truly has nothing to do with Scottish independence and the linking of the two subjects is due to myopic populism.
It is not difficult to understand how an external player could exploit these "cut off one's nose to spite one's face" feelings to get people to act irrationally. For example, Brexit exploited English conservative desires to stick it to liberals and moving subs exploits the Scottish independence movement and their desire to tell the English to get stuffed.
The winner in both cases is one and the same.
> You even fail to see that you are not really elaborating on the reason, which only adds to the feeling of bias.
Search your feelings better.
This is ridiculous; the reason I defended myself, is because _I think of myself as a conservative_. But this doesn't free one from having to justify oneself; rather the opposite, and I very much understand that.
> For the last time, that is _not_ the argument presented.
Okey , so what is the argument presented?
Why is this creating destabilization? I only see two arguments in the entire conversation:
* Moving the subs "weakens the British defense posture". Why? Because it weakens it. I guess I should apparently read this again and again until I understand it.
* Change "for the sake of sticking it to the opposition and for the benefit of one's adversaries" is bad. Yet this is both a strawman and at the same time begging the question. First, you have not justified why this is done only to "stick it to the opposition", there are valid arguments for (some of them presented above) and against which you are not even entertaining, just discarding. Second, "for the benefit of adversaries" is _your conclusion_, not a premise, not an argument.
With this type of reasoning, it doesn't matter how many times you ask for people to re-read your comment; we are just going on in circles here.
> It is not difficult to understand how an external player could exploit these "cut off one's nose to spite one's face" feelings to get people to act irrationally.
Or to _prevent_ people from taking the rational course of action out of FUD.
Because is my country also, and they want to gag me and to steal me.
The sovereignty of a country relies in all citizens, and the citizenship came with some inalienable rights. In the same way as Nevada couldn't wake up tomorrow and decide that they will became part of China and the rest of the Americans can't enter or live there anymore. Changing the fate for every citizen would need to consult every citizen in the country about what they want to do, and the immense majority of us don't want to lose part of our country by a bunch of crooks. Period. Is called democracy.
Careful 'what you wish. You want options.
If all your rooms get painted green but your colour is white...
There is no "love it or leave it" if there is no "leave it". Existence should not be a bed of Procuste - least you accept that /I/ take the measures and /you/ submit to them.
Surely there will be some place where "debate" is not different from "pooling", and they will be as comfortable there as we find it a buggery.
Non separatist Catalan here and I can say this is complete BS. There is no doubt that there is more people in Catalunya that doesn't know Catalan than Spanish. I have been raised in a family that has been speaking Catalan for many generations and everybody now is almost bilingual with Spanish. And oh hell if I wish that English was the second language there.
Tired of this propaganda that only causes more pain and exalts nationalist feelings in both sides.
You could say that this is not bad, ok. But you can't deny it.
Go there and experience it yourself and try to create an objective opinion from it. Another fact, most of the first generation immigrants will learn Spanish way earlier than Catalan, if they ever learn Catalan at all. And I am not saying this is bad, as for practical reasons they will obviously learn the 4th most spoken language in the world before learning a language that is spoken by 7 million people. Besides they know that with Spanish they can communicate with everybody, which is not the case with Catalan.
More rigor and an independent point of view from politicians and media is needed if there is a real will to solve the issue.
If they do secede from Spain I will not learn Catalan, I will just leave. I'll probably have to anyway because I assume Spain will force them out of the EU and there's no way the multinational I work for will stay then.
It feels very similar to Ireland where they also use heavy handed methods to keep their language alive but in a globalized world it would hurt them a lot if it were actually needed to live there. So it has to stay this fringe thing. A lot of it is just to pacify the old people that still associate English with the British oppression (which was brutal to be fair)
I assume this will happen to Catalan too, the oppression is just a lot more recent to them. So it's more fresh and alive.
FWIW I'm Dutch and I wouldn't care if my country abolishes Dutch in favor of English. I view language as a means of communication, not cultural identity. And as such being able to communicate with as many people as possible makes a language more valuable.
So my anecdote would be that generally Barcelona seems to be fine with Spanish (and walking around the city I heard a lot more Spanish than both English and Catalan) while areas up north/west seems to almost require you to speak in Catalan.
In the rural area that's much less except for the migrant farm workers
What's wrong with having separate countries? Would Canadians be better off if they were part of America? I don't understand westerners who cheer for independence in places like Xinjiang and Tibet but steadfastly oppose the idea when any region of their own country wants to be independent.
The book Breakdown of Nations by Leopold Khor talks about this. He talks about the idea of dividing into smaller political units to fix our problems. He makes a lot of sense. There's a video summarizing the book [0].
Maybe this is what happens when you try strangle a nation and its culture, but you fail to do it entirely. Catalonia was conquered by force, and luckily its language and culture survived along the centuries (despite all attempts). You can't invade a region, enforce your language and culture and expect it to magically become yours. Look at what happened to all the other (former) Spanish colonies, how many of them fought for their independence (and won it)?
> TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country
You would like a "united country", but this will prove difficult, as there is no such thing. Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force – with more or less success at assimilating them into the Castilian culture over time. Some went along, some do not feel like they belong, some feel entirely mistreated but got an ok tax deal with enough leeway, and some just had enough altogether.
Many Catalans (me included) don't want to be part of Spain, and I doubt this will change any time soon. Especially on those who witnessed what happened during our attempt at a peaceful referendum in 2017. The speech the King of Spain gave after citizens where beaten for trying to cast a vote(!) is a great example. The silence of the non-catalans whilst the beating was happening another one. The former King doings, his fleeing out of the country with total impunity, and how the farce of a judicial system treated the whole thing, one more for the list. There's a certain "way of doing" embedded deep into Spain, that I fear will never go away ("atado y bien atado").
There's only one solution and it's what Catalonia has been asking for all along. Allow a fair referendum, where the repercussions of both options (stay and secede) are explained clearly to the population, and let the people decide. It seems inconceivable to me that a proper referendum about this ongoing issue is not allowed, especially in a supposedly democratic country like Spain.
I could see Spain and Catalonia being good allies within the EU; but as it is setup now, the relationship is just not working. And making it work "by force" will only stir more and more trouble.
> it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era
I think you are confusing 90%+ "wanting to be united" for "not bothered enough to do anything about it".
The end of the dictatorship (without consequences the fascist side btw) gave hope to a lot of people, and attempts were made to "make it work" despite all the terrible acts Catalonia suffered. As soon as it became obvious there was no way to decide our own future whilst inside Spain (see Estatut d'Autonomia 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalon...), it was clear that it was all a farce. Anti-Catalanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism) and other attitudes / reactions from many parts of Spain towards Catalonia lead to this. It is way too easy for political parties to get votes around Spain by stirring anger towards Catalonia... I think most catalans would be happy remaining in Spain if their language, culture, traditions and pockets were respected. But that's just not what Spain wants Catalonia for.
> Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force
Hem... not and not. Marriage arrangement is not the same as violence necessarily
Nobody has been beaten for "casting a vote" in this country in many, many time. That scam was not even a real election and the desired results were rigged from the start.
Please, stop with the Franco bullshit. You were not the only Spanish that suffered in the civil war.
Were referendum voters not beat? Is this also an hallucination? That was just unjustifiable. Legal or not, Spain left the catalans who want to decide their future no other choice than to organize a mock referendum. This is what happens when you deny peoples rights for that long. And after seeing how the Spanish government reacted on its own peaceful citizens, how would anyone want to stay?
Nobody said Catalonia was the only one suffering during the dictatorship, lots of people from many places in Spain did. And I am not sure why they want to stay in, especially seeing how certain things will never change.
Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1886698-otto-von-bismarck-i-am-...
Amazing story.
Also, they have a tribunal that has two powers, and another one that decides if money has been well spent, if they decide otherwise you get to pay with your properties.
Amazing country, and is part of EU.