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Comment by david_l_lin | Hacker News Reader

Not directly related, but Listerine and other broad antimicrobial mouthwashes have been shown to have a negative impact on the oral microbiome similar to how antibiotics cause dysbiosis in the gut.

At Bristle Health, we advocate for products that foster an environment that supports your oral microbiome rather than destroy it, as it’s crucial to both your oral and systemic health. You can find more about our research here:

www.bristlehealth.com

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I question the legitimacy of this service. You say that you're all about oral health but yet the marketing material [1] goes onto use the fictional condition of halitosis. Which Listerine basically [2] made up for marketing purposes because it sounded scientific. So aren't you just playing to peoples fears rather than actually trying to do so some good education?

[1] https://assets.website-files.com/621fba879a7423c6c3a5c77d/62...

[2] https://dentaldepotarizona.com/history-of-halitosis/

They didn't make it up; it was coined earlier, but they certainly ran with it

I’m glad you brought up the history of halitosis and marketing. In fact, the oft recommended twice-per-year visit to the dentist began as a pepsodent ad! It turns out that in low risk individuals, the frequency of dental cleaning and checkups did not improve oral health outcomes.

https://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/dental-check-ups-every-six...

Now onto halitosis. Intra-oral halitosis is caused by volatile sulfur compounds and volatile organic compounds that are generated by microbes in the mouth: aka the oral microbiome. A number of studies have shown that halitosis is associated with specific bacterial species that have been shown to create these compounds both in vivo and in vitro. A good review on the subject is here:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32748883/

A number of clinical trials aimed at the efficacy of mouthwashes, probiotics, probiotics, lozenges have even been published. The general consensus is that mouthwashes offer temporary relief (through broadly decreasing microbial burden), and some probiotics are effective long term, but there is still much to uncover in this space as community dynamics of the microbiome are complex.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30834725/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27508274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31799694/

There must be a misunderstanding here.

It seems your own citation [2] contradicts your claim that Listerine made up halitosis.

On the contrary it look like the article specifically makes a point that they did not make up the condition or the name of it.

Did they do anything other than adopt the Latin word and raise awareness of it in marketing?

Very interesting... So does that mean avoiding mouthwash altogether and only brushing with very simple fluoride toothpaste?

I'm guessing you don't cater to Australia.

Depending on your oral microbiome, there are more specific mouthwashes that primarily target anaerobic species that are implicated in diseases like gum disease and halitosis. Fluoride is highly effective at reducing caries incidence, but some newer ingredients also exist (such as nanohydroxyapatite) with high clinical efficacy if you worry about fluoride overexposure.

Additionally, depending on your oral microbiome, and your risk for oral disease, we recommend other products that can reduce your risk of disease and prevent the outgrowth of species implicated in oral disease.

Unfortunately we don’t ship to Australia yet! Someday soon I hope!

How do you feel about Closys for targeting anaerobic species?

Brush your teeth regularly, eat decent foods, user a waterpick and/or floss a couple times a week, and get a dental cleaning periodically.

You can find out more about my theories here:

www.stopfallingforshittybiomestartups.com

Regular oral hygiene is a decent predictor of oral health. However this does not explain why the incidence of caries and irreversible gum disease are so high. Almost half of all Americans have some form of gum disease, which we can predict using the oral microbiome, which are the same people that regularly see a dentist and have “normal” hygiene habits.

Let’s stop normalizing reactive medicine and start thinking about personalized preventive approaches to health. There is no one size fits all approach to your systemic health, and the same applies to oral health.

I was in my thirties before I was taught to floss halfway correctly, and since then my gums have sorted themselves out great. I think we just don’t educate people enough on this.

Please share the correct way! I didn't realize I'd been doing it wrong all these years.

A link to brushing and flossing correctly is below! In summary:

- Brushing: Hold your toothbrush at a 45-degree angle. This is the best angle for cleaning both the surface of your teeth and inside the gumline (killing two birds with one stone).

- Flossing: Use the "C Technique". Wrap the floss around the side of your tooth in a C-shape, and gently guide it up and down the length of your tooth and softly below your gum line.

[1] https://www.bristlehealth.com/post/brush-and-floss-correctly

If you're regularly seeing a dentist and still develop gum disease then you really ought to find another dentist.

doesn't the alcohol content in listerine increase the risk of oral cancers I read somewhere?

Maybe? There seems to be evidence that alcohol based mouthwash is an increased risk when associated with other factors (most notably smoking, drinking, and betel nut chewing), but not much data to show it is an independent risk factor in itself.

Here is one study and a meta-analysis for reference:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13688...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6982979/

Any alcohol would most likely, it is not very good for you. Really, anything that causes a lot of repair to be needed due to cell death. For example, hot drinks, smoking, hydrogen peroxide, life.

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