Comment by nemothekid | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nemothekid | Hacker News Reader

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>9/11 really was plotted by Islamists who do actually hate us for our freedoms, since to them our freedom amounts to a rejection of God's law, the soul of heresy, for which the punishment is death.

Osama Bin Laden's own motivations for 9/11 had more to do with American imperialism in the Middle East and less to do with "rejection of God's Law". This isn't speculation, but from the horse's mouth. The "hate us for our freedom" was propaganda by Bush, and anyone who only looks at that, without studying the history of American imperialism in the middle east, starting from the coup of Iran, ends up in the backwards conclusion that Islam is a violent religion (or at least any more violent than any other Abrahamic religion).

Please bear in mind that "rejection of God's law, the soul of heresy, for which the punishment is death" is also a major tenet in all Abrahamic religions. Secondly, there are plenty of Americans who are pining for nuclear war with Russia over Ukrainians; but somehow the blowback of nearly 50 years of foreign intervention by the CIA wouldn't be a motivation for anti-American sentiment in the middle east and instead "they just hate us for our freedom".

They hate us for other reasons too. But I don't think you suicide yourself and kill civilians for geopolitical goals. You do it for God.

Not sure how to respond here. Are you implying that people don't kill civilians for geopolitical goals? Like how Putin is doing now? Or that suicide bombers are a religious thing? Kamikaze Fighters? The assassination of Alexander II?

I'm not saying religion isn't a tool for executing these goals, but the orchestrators have always been acting under geopolitical goals.

Your comment is a combination of strawmanning and shifting the goal posts, and doesn't deserve a serious response. It does merit a question.

What motivates you to resist the simple truth that Islamists hate and wish to kill Westerners for breaking their holy law (the same behaviors we call "freedom"), admire martyrs who suicide themselves into civilians for this purpose? Do you think an Islamist would disagree with any of that? If so, why?

I believe GP and you are talking about two different actors; the individual committing the final act, and the individual rallying others to the cause.

The soldier does not have a larger strategy in mind; he kills for simple and extreme reasons. The government however is rarely so naive, and initiates their wars with much larger goals in mind. Even with a dictator, they represent the filtered understanding of many advisors, and balance the many goals of the group (so almost by definition, they cannot sustain a singular goal with singular purpose for long). The individual just needs one reason to do what he does, which might be as simple as “his boss told him to”.

>What motivates you to resist the simple truth that Islamists hate and wish to kill Westerners for breaking their holy law

Because it's a ridiculous premise that you would not apply to any other religion. It's not even a consistent view of Islam; you don't have Islamists in Malaysia (60% islamic) or Turkey (99% Islam) holding the same sort of contempt with to West.

Consider it this way, if a Russian came to you and said "the Ukrainians hate Russians because they are full of Nazis and they hate how Stalin purged Germany of Nazis" you would quickly realize that is ridiculous notion - Ukrainians are currently being bombed by Russian soldiers which fuels their animosity.

The West has largely done the same in the middle east, and not understanding this history leads you down to conclusion that they must hate the West because of Islam. I don't know how you could look at an entire group of people who have been practically waging a war for sovereignty against a incredibly more powerful adversary for almost _60 years_ and come away that their wish to kill westerners comes from breaking their holy law. Yeah, you can pretend Islam is a tiny part of it, but I think a larger part of that hate is having their government overthrown and then having their children blown up in an air strike.

>Because it's a ridiculous premise that you would not apply to any other religion.

I explicitly said in my initial comment that the slogan "They hate us for our freedom" applies to any fanatic of any religion. You are misrepresenting me, and are drifting further away from a specific point around what motivated the 9/11 attackers. Perhaps you are confused by the difference between Islam[0] and Islamism[1]?

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

I’m not misrepresenting you. You are just continually ignoring the history in these regions. I don’t think any religion supports your point. “Religious fanatics” are a convenient boogeyman to justify war and aggression. These terrorists don’t exist because of some holy war, they exist because they were caught in the middle of a proxy war between two super powers and witnessed their schools blow up.

People today are vehemently anti-China because of censorship in video games, but somehow it’s a leap of faith that people can be anti-West after their home is targeted in an air raid and we must turn to “religious fanatics”. If China dropped a bomb on your parents home over some mineral rights, don’t you think you would become a little anti-Chinese? What would you think if those Chinese turned around and called you fundamentalist Christian when you voiced those complaints?

If you buy that fact that the Middle East sustained aggression for over 50 years because of “religious fanactism” then you must also believe Putin’s line of reasoning that Zelensky is a nazi because it’s the same kind of propaganda

The "They hate us for our freedom" line was merely a hamfisted attempt on G. W. Bush's part to pander to disciples of 'American exceptionalism' while his search for WMD had foundered & we faced the disgust of the world. I'm not sure that the phrase is even in opposition to God's Law since Bush surely believed that America was subject to God's Law (albeit a different one), yet surely didn't think that American Freedom would suffer for (being subject to His Law). Indeed, while the American Right now enjoys a resurgence nationally and works to roll back LGBTQ and abortion rights in favor of what they deem God would proscribe, they surely won't think that we are any less 'free'. And that is the largest point -- that freedom needs quotes, since its purely subjective.

Let me be clear: I agree that the US has acted purely in its geopolitical (energy) interests in the Middle East, to the great detriment of the well-being of the people living there, including civilians. I also agree that being treated like this can engender hatred and feelings of vengeance. I also understand that leaders habitually manipulate people with whatever tools are handy, faith being a traditional favorite, such that an individual may think they're doing God's will, when they're actually doing their political leader's will.

I believe all of that, yet "they hate us for our freedom" remains an accurate description of the fanatic. It is, essentially, definitional.

>If China dropped a bomb on your parents home over some mineral rights, don’t you think you would become a little anti-Chinese?

You seem to interpret what I'm saying as bigoted against Muslims (it's not, BTW), so I'm surprised you'd make this argument. Furthermore, it's ambiguous what you mean: do you mean anti-China, or anti-Chinese? Yes, I would certainly feel the former, but not the latter. Individuals aren't nations, never were, never will be.

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